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______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Children,

It's been funny to play, as usual. I am out of this thread now :-D

Landis failed the test for A sample.
Landis failed the test for B sample.
Landis failed the C13/C12 test.

That's 3...just like Tyler.

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______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Dick Pound does not work for the Lab.

ouch.
i don't know enough about frank day enough to comment on that.


so you're are saying that the validity of testing protocol is not affected by errors, as long as those errors are made by respected scientists?


please answer my question clearly, as i can get my dose of humor and personal attacks from other places on the internet.

please answer my question clearly, as i can get my dose of humor and personal attacks from other places on the internet.


ahhh...so you are familiar with letsrun.com.

Everyone makes mistakes. However, at this point there are 3 tests that came back positive for testosterone. The lab can fail one test, not 3.

Now it seems that the point raised is a conspiracy theory...I'll refrain from commenting on this. But there is a thread about JFK in the LR if you want ;-)

Pretty classic Paulo...Stir the shit, evade direct questions, leave as opposed to having an intelligent debate. Maybe he's been running in the Sahara this morning?

BTW, I don't know if Landis is guilty, innocent, nice guy, bad guy...my point is at least let's wait until matter is settled and FACTS (not leaked facts, partial facts, maybe facts) can be evaluated. That means both what the test of the A and B sample showed, whether the results indicated doping, how the lab handled the results, etc.

Mike

Well, if it makes you feel better, I would really like Landis to be clean. As well as other riders, but nothing that has happened in the past 30years or even more makes me want to believe cycling is clean.
1998 was the big cleaning year. Since then, the Tour has only been going faster...

"Landis failed the test for B sample."

you might want to look into this one a little further.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Deal. If you look into the C13/C12 test.

It just sucks that there is so much confidential information that is leaked out of supposedly sealed testing protocols. There should be an effort to clean up the sport, including the testing process and leaking of information. I'm not naive enough to think that cycling isn't fairly dirty, but the testing sure seems to have it's own agenda as well and both need to be cleaned up if it's ever going to regain any credibility.

Mike

the one approach suggested to clean up sports has been carefully avoided by most professional athletes and professional teams (across sports) because they were afraid of privacy issues.
It was to have a continuous monitoring of physiological and biological values, monitoring done by independent and accredited entities.

Besides this approach, it's pointless to fight doping, you might as well legalize it.

But wasn't this the test the article mentions, that the lab did not follow the manufactures procedures on how to use the equipment? So how do you know how reliable the results are?

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Same issue with most sports, I agree. But until they clean up cycling, it doesn't have enough of a mainstream following and we will have to continue to watch on VS instead of expanded coverage on network TV. At some point, this has to hit the riders pocketbooks, because I'm sure VS doesn't pay like ABC/NBC/CBS/ESPN would. Also, sponsors are less likely sponsor a sport that continues to result in bad press.

Mike

VS meaning victoria's secrets right? Something we might all agree on...

"we ought to hate drug cheats but we ought to set up proper procedures for dealing with them, and then follow these procedures."

You left out one important thing. They need to develop a test or bring the lab to each stage of the "Big Tours" and post the results of the test before they hand out awards. Until they do this there will always be the excuse the lab mishandled the test. They need something on the same principal as a breathalizer test for DUI. You get immediate results.

just my 2 cents


Rex

"Deal. If you look into the C13/C12 test."

in this test, 4 metabolites are examined, all must be abnormal according to this test's protocol. only one was abnormal. that assumes the samples were not contaminated, which is highly suspect.

your turn. and here's a clue before you start. there are three (that i can think of) strong -- one might even say unassailable -- arguments for one of landis' two samples to be adjudged negative.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

hey slowman
and that would have been the "A" sample, at i think it was 4.5 to 1, 4 to 1 binging ok but 4.5 being over. and the .5 can be explaned by the alcohol, but my prob is that the "B" sample should have been the same as the "A" right? taken at the same time but way off on the second test.
Dan...

Dan,

I have to conclude that you are convinced FL was innocent and is/was clean and would support a "no testing!" stance. Would you put that in writing?

There are numerous people out there (and on this forum) that have pointed you to (currently) valid scientific evidence that he tested positive.

I am kind of curious what hard facts you have (scientific data, blood-work etc.) that ACTIVELY support his innocence?

I am sure you know that FL and Co. have made NO attempt to get his alledged abnormal natural T/E ratios tested by other labs and by other methods which are readily available in the US. (I have information that this was offered to him from several sides and even free of charge). For example, testing the glycosylation patters of his "natural" steroids and other newer tests that are more up to snuff, if you want to call it this way.

You know as well as I that this would be possible RIGHT NOW, post factum, since FL and Co. claim "natural causes".

Even so the tests in question are in their nature not the latest available (they will always be due to certification and verification processes all tests have to go through), I would have expected FL and Co. to explore all avenues to get those "up to cutting-edge science" tests conducted.
Even if not done in a WADA-accredited Lab, the results could very well support FL case and would provide at least DIRECT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

So forgive me that I don't buy into any of the "mirror-smoking" and "finger-pointing" going on right now.
I think that people who go along on this avenue do a tremendous damage to the credibility of athletes on one side and testing authorities on the other.

I am somewhat dissapointed that you participate in it.

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

 
thats funny,

i think my son may actually posts over there...which is all the more reason for smart people to avoid that forum....i havn't peeked over there in a long time, i can only imagine the bull he unloads on that site.




anyway, it appears as though pualo is not going to respond to me and clarify his logic for the forum. I can see how posting is addictive and more time consuming than lurking. It might be best for my blood pressure if i fade back into lurk mode before this place consumes my life.