Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Keto vs. Carbs
Quote | Reply
This is probably as sensitive as a CrossFit discussion, but I honestly want some help. I need to drop about #30 (currently #215). The last 2 podcasts with Ben Greenfield were with Gary Taubes, railing against sugar, and Mark Sissen, who is the self-proclaimed King of Primal.
I’ve been doing fat coffee for a while now, but can find a bunch of places to cut sugar. However, today, on my brick, I used Gatoraide Endurance, and felt amazing. I have 6-7 months until my first A race of the season. Cutting the crap from my day is obvious, but should I attempt the mystical fat-burning metabolism change? Or is all that a bunch of marketing crap?
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mpderksen wrote:
Cutting the crap from my day is obvious, but should I attempt the mystical fat-burning metabolism change?

You have the answer. Cut the crap from your daily nutrition. Fuel your workouts with carbs.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
^^^ what he said. It's marketing crap. Cut the simple sugars in your diet except for energy drinks during your LONGEST training rides and runs. Eat complex carbs at about 65-70% of your calories, and track the sugars in your foods by adding only your own.

Example: oatmeal with raisins and a bit of brown sugar is fine, bc you know what you put in it, as opposed to some cereals and most bread, that has added sugars. Don't drink ANY fruit juices, because they have many times he amount of sugars you'd get from whol fruits, and not much more nutrients. Go from there, and you'll be well on your way.

"Paleo" is also crap. Very little of what you can buy in the meat section is at all like what humans ate long ago. Unless you can eat lots of venison, wild turkey, goose, bison, wild rabbit, and wild-caught fish, you won't find anything similar to ancient diets. But that's not even the main criticism: humans all over the world across thousands of generations have eaten remarkably varied diets. Inuit, !Kung, Andaman Islanders, Polynesians, Lapps, Maasai, Celts, etc etc etc, ate whatever they could find, with huge variety between populations across millennia. Humans are omnivores, and make do with what they find or can grow.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This literally can not be overstated: intake vs. expenditure. It's really as simple as that. And for the love of god, solid advice for life would be to do exactly the opposite of what Gary Taubes tells you to do. His explanation of how insulin influences storage and liberation of fuel made my fucking head explode.
If you're serious about structuring a weight loss program, check out Power Eating by Susan Kleiner. I think they're on a 4th edition now, but I largely still operate on the information in edition 1. And regardless of whether or not you have a background in biochemistry and nutrition, you'll learn a lot from the book. Good luck, I know it can be frustrating, particularly with people like Taubes passing on misinformation as fact.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I was actually surprised how bad the podcast with Mark Sisson was in terms of wrong information.
The guy has written a keto book yet seems to know nothing about ketosis.

Does ketosis make you more metabolically flexible? NO! It makes you inflexible the other way!
Does it burn more fat? NO! Ketones inhibit lipolysis.

Etc.

The Taubes interview was actually better, but still with considerable bias.
Yes, Sugar is a massive problem as it's pretty addictive.

Try making the minimal change, take all the junk food out of the diet, then add a few bits of comfort food back in if you want to at the right times, I.e. After a hard workout would be a good time.
See how you feel.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mpderksen wrote:
Cutting the crap from my day is obvious
Then start there. Eat clean, keep your protein intake reasonable, cut all crap, cut carbs when you don't need them. Have you realistically done that for several months and waited for the results?

Also, don't just start adding random things to your diet. Fat coffee? Just adding fat to a random meal without other adaptations is a sure way to make you gain weight. More calories in, same calories out? Weight gain. Simple math.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [Thorax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
since no one else said it

#1 issue to fix first dont listen to that podcast.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To lose %bf, I’d start with not adding fat to my coffee, but that's just me.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [Trimeon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Trimeon wrote:
since no one else said it

#1 issue to fix first dont listen to that podcast.

This.

Not listening to those three in general is also a good idea. There are no secrets. There are no shortcuts.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [Derekl] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
All very fair points. Last June, I tracked my calories for a week. I realized I was drinking 9,000 calories of wine (and this was my normal intake, not a special occasion). All wine, every night, up to #234. Yeah, so it was a problem. I quit cold turkey on June 2, and haven’t had a drink since. I took my life back, dusted off my bike, and signed up for some races. About that time, my wife got a Keto book from a friend. I started the coffee with MCT, cacao butter, collegen peptides, and hemp seeds. I have that, and I’m full until like 1:00pm. I also noticed that I was not just drinking 2 bottles of wine each night (told you it was a problem....) for the alcohol, but had developed a carb addiction. For the last 6 months I have had ice cream every night instead. As I say it out loud, I can see how lame it’s been.
Fast forward to this week. I’ve been really great getting back into shape, and my CTL is steady at 50 for now. My weight loss stalled, but I think I can see the issues. Like a moth to something shiny, I heard those podcasts while driving to UC Berkeley this week. Looking for something new, I thought “this is going to fix me”.
Maybe I should have put all that in the first post. The generally consensus here is enough for me. Clean, high-quality foods, and fuel for the workouts.
Now can someone explain why I can’t exceed 144 heart rate on ANY run or Phil Maffatone says I won’t get any faster??????
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mpderksen wrote:
Now can someone explain why I can’t exceed 144 heart rate on ANY run or Phil Maffatone says I won’t get any faster??????

You either have a knack for selecting cranks for your advice, or you're trolling. First Greenfield, now Maffetone.

Just keep running, build your base, and as you lose weight and gain fitness your max HR will raise. Or, as a venerable old ST poster whose name I forget, once said: "Speedwork is the icing on the cake, and you don't have a cake yet".

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wouldn't take nutrition advice on Slowtwitch. You'll get a lot of n=1 examples.

If you want a good discussion of the role of carbs and fat in your diet, check on Dr. Jason Fung.

You're such a Trump ball washer! - Duffy - Feb 8, 17 13:18
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Richard Blaine wrote:
mpderksen wrote:
Now can someone explain why I can’t exceed 144 heart rate on ANY run or Phil Maffatone says I won’t get any faster??????

You either have a knack for selecting cranks for your advice, or you're trolling. First Greenfield, now Maffetone.

Just keep running, build your base, and as you lose weight and gain fitness your max HR will raise. Or, as a venerable old ST poster whose name I forget, once said: "Speedwork is the icing on the cake, and you don't have a cake yet".

The comment was actually made in jest. I forgot the pink....
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I havent had a chance to read all the responses you have got here.

I use hflc to improve my performance but note for athletes that does not mean keto. keto will not help you achieve anything other than breaking you.

There is a balance, for me its in the 50-100g of carbs a day range, normally a bit closer to 50 but 100 on higher intensity days.

Good luck.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdMOsnILT00

This is a video by Dr. Andy Galpin on Carbs vs Fats. There is a lot of confusion on the subject and a lot of people making the confusion even worse.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
While I haven't looked through diet research recently I do remember that the majority of diets work bc people watch the # of calories consumed and tend to make healither food choices while on these "diets".

IOW stop eating shit and eat healthier while watching the total amount you eat.

It's basic math. Ingestion needs to be < expenditure. If the amount you eat is > the amount you're expending you're gaining weight.

9,000 cal from wine a week...impressive, very impressive. How many bottles is that?...asking for a friend

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
twitter & IG = @accelerate3
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
While I haven't looked through diet research recently I do remember that the majority of diets work bc people watch the # of calories consumed and tend to make healither food choices while on these "diets".

IOW stop eating shit and eat healthier while watching the total amount you eat.

It's basic math. Ingestion needs to be < expenditure. If the amount you eat is > the amount you're expending you're gaining weight.

9,000 cal from wine a week...impressive, very impressive. How many bottles is that?...asking for a friend

I drank 2 bottles/night, 7 days/week for a few years This summer I woke up, decided to stop killing myself and quit that day. I was in a nose dive, but pulled up with my marriage and job in tact. Now I have to rebuild my health. Seriously not trolling. Just have a lot to learn.
Just finished 8 mile run in a balanced brunch and feel amazing. No fat coffe, and I didn’t need a bathroom halfway through...
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [Thorax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thorax wrote:
More calories in, same calories out? Weight gain. Simple math.

Unless you have chloroplasts, this is it, right here. People seem to want to complicate the solution, but regardless of the macronutrient composition, net caloric balance dictates the flux of body fat stores. That's the end of the story. Of course, personal anecdotes are largely meaningless, but I'll share mine anyway. I hate spending money on expensive (healthy) food, so I buy almost exclusively based upon calories per dollar. To that end, my most common carbohydrate sources are walmart brand pop tarts, bulk pasta, rice and ice cream. Of course, my micronutrient profile is abysmal, but that has nothing to do with body composition. I'm too cheap to eat salads and designer healthy foods. They're delicious, but I can't justify it.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
domingjm wrote:
This literally can not be overstated: intake vs. expenditure. It's really as simple as that.
For weight management, it's a reasonable starting point. But food provides way more than just energy. Plant matter and fibre for gut health. Oils (fish/vegetable, not fat) for nerve myelination. Proteins for building blocks. Your body doesn't process them all in exactly the same way, so calories in vs. calories out isn't necessarily true.

But back to basics. Dieting is crap. Just eat well. We aren't all supposed to be the same size.

Eat Food.
Not Too Much.
Mostly Plants.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Totally. But if we're exclusively discussing body composition, specifically the dynamics of adipose storage vs. liberation, the only players in the formula are macronutrient intake and caloric expenditure....because mammals neither create nor excrete calories (with the exception of several metabolic disorders). Like you wisely pointed out though, it would be a miserable idea to formulate a diet plan where macronutrient composition is the only factor.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
domingjm wrote:
Thorax wrote:
More calories in, same calories out? Weight gain. Simple math.


Unless you have chloroplasts, this is it, right here. People seem to want to complicate the solution, but regardless of the macronutrient composition, net caloric balance dictates the flux of body fat stores. That's the end of the story. Of course, personal anecdotes are largely meaningless, but I'll share mine anyway. I hate spending money on expensive (healthy) food, so I buy almost exclusively based upon calories per dollar. To that end, my most common carbohydrate sources are walmart brand pop tarts, bulk pasta, rice and ice cream. Of course, my micronutrient profile is abysmal, but that has nothing to do with body composition. I'm too cheap to eat salads and designer healthy foods. They're delicious, but I can't justify it.

A person after my own heart!!! I too buy foods based on calories per dollar expended. I buy Kroger brand cola and Mtn Dew, de-fizz it, and use it for long workouts and as a recovery drink. Typically they are $0.75 per 2 liters (67.6 oz), and they have 100-130 cal/8 oz so about 845-1100 cal/$0.75 = 1125-1465 cal/$1.00. also, recently i bought some choc chip cookie mix and made 3000 cal of cookies for $2.00, or 1500 cal.$1.00. First time i've ever made my own cookies. I buy Ramen noodles, bulk chicken at $0.69/lb, WalMart hamburger patties at 1.49-1.90/lb, etc. Just can't see spending too much money on food.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I personally just prefer to see what the real performers eat. Just got this on my reading list:

Run Fast. Eat Slow.: Nourishing Recipes for Athletes

by Shalane Flanagan, Elyse Kopecky
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's hilarious! I just yesterday walked out of Kroger with two 2lb slabs of refrigerated cookie dough (peppermint and sugar cookie!) for $1.50 each! I didn't even bother looking at the calories because I knew they were a freaking steal.
Anything more than about 1000kcal per dollar is a perfectly legitimate menu item as far as I'm concerned. And yeah, when I was a poor graduate student, Ramen was my gold standard for caloric efficiency.
You know, if you think you'd use it, you should pick up a bread maker. A 25# bag of flour is ~$5 or $6, putting home made bread at something like 6000 or 8000kcal per dollar. And it's freaking delicious! Best birthday gift I got that year. No kidding, it's a great buy.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I could never get away with eating crap while watching out for CICO alone and stay lean. Macronutrient ratios and sugar intake makes a huge difference.
Weight management by itself I could probably swing, though... As long as I did watch the calories, since there's no way around it. But never tried.
Quote Reply
Re: Keto vs. Carbs [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windschatten wrote:
I personally just prefer to see what the real performers eat. Just got this on my reading list:

Run Fast. Eat Slow.: Nourishing Recipes for Athletes

by Shalane Flanagan, Elyse Kopecky


Diets of elite athletes to apply to average Joe recreational athletes, especially when they gained a good amount of pudge to earn a metabolic disorders. Thus low carb / keto would be perfect for this guy to get to race weight. Once hitting that weight bring back the carbs reasonably. Annoying how lots of fatso out there want to brag about there 300w FTP pounding down sugar-ade drinks yet are near 300lb . The 3 month performance loss will be worth the speed gain for your race


http://www.coupleofathletes.com
Last edited by: synthetic: Jan 15, 18 10:06
Quote Reply

Prev Next