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Just assume your favorite athletes are doping
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After discounting some answers, from athletes who responded so hastily that they may have misunderstood the survey instructions or not carefully considered their response, the team of nine researchers from Europe and the United States came up with estimates of the doping prevalence among athletes at the two events: 30 to 31 percent at the world championships in Daegu, South Korea, and 45 to 49 percent at the Pan-Arab Games.

Researchers said those findings may still have underestimated the extent of the cheating.


Whether you are okay with that is up to you.


https://www.nytimes.com/...doping-in-track.html


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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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The other 70% are lying.
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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There are WGB's as well as NGB's such as USAT that don't think it's that prevalent.

I know USAT was supposed to kick off an educational program about anti-doping but haven't seen anything about it yet. Hopefully they are going to can that in favor of more out of comp and in comp testing.

Brian Stover USAT LII
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
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After discounting some answers, from athletes who responded so hastily that they may have misunderstood the survey instructions or not carefully considered their response, the team of nine researchers from Europe and the United States came up with estimates of the doping prevalence among athletes at the two events: 30 to 31 percent at the world championships in Daegu, South Korea, and 45 to 49 percent at the Pan-Arab Games.

Researchers said those findings may still have underestimated the extent of the cheating.
[/q


Whether you are okay with that is up to you.

https://www.nytimes.com/...doping-in-track.html



I always want us to have a candid conversation about this but everyone is so cautious. There are certain individuals and certain countries that always seem to be quite dominant in this sport and yet no one wants to shine a light on it
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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When there is money and sponsorship on the line they are all on dope.
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [T3_Beer] [ In reply to ]
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T3_Beer wrote:
When there is money and sponsorship on the line they are all on dope.

It's not just professionals, though. I think that's what people have a hard time grasping. I think it's rampant.
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
T3_Beer wrote:
When there is money and sponsorship on the line they are all on dope.


It's not just professionals, though. I think that's what people have a hard time grasping. I think it's rampant.

I think you are right. I should have said "when there is money, sponsorship, or rich guys with fragile egos involved they are all on dope"
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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>>>Just assume your favorite athletes are doping

DONE!

2 hour marathon? 4 min 35 sec mile, for 26 miles? Are you fucking kidding me?
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Its easy to say russia, china or pick a nation.....

The reality is anti aging clinically approved pharmaceuticals are increasingly becoming widely available and if you think its any less available to middle aged men in the US than the UK or elsewhere i am not sure you have been paying attention

Tests can be beaten - ask; lance, russia, anyone associated with lance, might be worth asking salazar and farah who roll out the "never failed a test" trope

I am a cynic. I think almost everyone is dirty. My one big exception is phelps and i could not tell you why.

I think wiggins was clean in so far as sky having pushed the ethical and moral boundaries of proclaiming to take the high road whilst driving along the bottom of ravine.........

I think doping is more prevalent across the board than anyone believes

There was an article in outside years ago about a guy who loaded up on everything

There is no reason to think it has lessened and the drugs have only become cheaper, more widely available and easy to take

How fast are 40-45 these days and do we think the speed in depth is down to; aero, coaches, training alone?
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I have been saying for at least a dozen years or so that 50% of AG'ers would not pass a drug test, and I'm including the entree field of athletes. Compared to the AG'ers the pros are squeaky clean. Maybe like 10% or so of pros in this category, less in triathlon than cycling of course. This is not counting team sports though, those are still very dirty because of the athlete unions and institutional coverups.

I'm surprised that people are finally getting the information out now, perhaps it will enlighten the few that really dont even know they are doping, just following doctors orders and such..
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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My certainly hope my NY Jets are not doping but they would find someway to screw that up also.
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I'm pretty cynical about everyone as well. I based a lot of my opinion off of what I've been told by a couple of very reputable close friends. One was a pro cyclist in the Armstrong days and the other one spent a few years in the NFL the stories that I've heard from these guys are crazy. I think 10 years from now we'll be in the same spot we are with Armstrong except with different athletes saying gee how did we miss all the signs
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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(Quote Andrewmc) "I am a cynic. I think almost everyone is dirty. My one big exception is Phelps and i could not tell you why." (Quote)

Can you expand on this??? Being a big swim fan, I've always thought/hoped MP was clean myself.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I have been saying for at least a dozen years or so that 50% of AG'ers would not pass a drug test, and I'm including the entree field of athletes. Compared to the AG'ers the pros are squeaky clean. Maybe like 10% or so of pros in this category, less in triathlon than cycling of course. This is not counting team sports though, those are still very dirty because of the athlete unions and institutional coverups.

I'm surprised that people are finally getting the information out now, perhaps it will enlighten the few that really dont even know they are doping, just following doctors orders and such..


THIS. Especially in triathlon. I had a conversation with someone who is directly connected to a lot of successful pro triathletes and they just don't have the money to dope. Personally, I think there are a few obvious dopers in our pro field but for the most part, he's right. We pay our pros dirt and they simply are living paycheck to paycheck. So, even if they had the money to dope, they probably don't have the money to dope without getting caught.

However, he has tons of amateurs come through his doors that he was fairly certain are doping.
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I have been saying for at least a dozen years or so that 50% of AG'ers would not pass a drug test, and I'm including the entree field of athletes. Compared to the AG'ers the pros are squeaky clean. Maybe like 10% or so of pros in this category, less in triathlon than cycling of course. This is not counting team sports though, those are still very dirty because of the athlete unions and institutional coverups.

I'm surprised that people are finally getting the information out now, perhaps it will enlighten the few that really dont even know they are doping, just following doctors orders and such..

Sure, I have suspicions about AGers I know, especially those at the pointy end of the field, but 50% of the entire field at a local tri? What would most be busted for (including women)?
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I have never believed cycling was clean. Its pretty naive to think that any group of elite athletes in any field can go out and shell themselves every single day for 3 weeks (rest day is not a rest day really and lets be honest if you are completely fucked going in to it, one day is not going to help). Cycling requires people to just bury themselves and we cam argue about technique but in the end they are basically just engines

In skill terms swimming is as far removed from cycling as perhaps golf is from (can not think of another sport like cycling where person is engine - rowing has massive engine and skill factor)

Phelps. I do not know why. Probably simply because he is like nicklaus, a once in a lifetime athlete and he did it in a sport where, much like golf, it requires massive amounts of technical ability (and unlike golf) combined with an enormous engine and physiology suited to the sport

I read the sports gene. Phelps is the perfect combination of the ability to master a complex skill, with a ability to absorb massive work and then really weird physiology -on the border of actually a diagnosis of a genetic related condition (leg length to torso length) to become the GOAT.

I am not an american but phelps is just amazing
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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What would most be busted for (including women)?

Remember back before the drug companies got spanked for their T commercials, there was one on just about every 1/2 hour on each and every station just about. Why do you think that was, and who do you think was buying all that T to support such a massive ad campaign?


That kicked it off and now even though it has somewhat subsided on the airwaves, the damage was done. That and the whole longevity thing that started about 20+ years ago have put a lot of stuff in a lot of people that have no idea that it is wrong for sport. Of course a lot of the folks do know, especially now, but just go look at a recent thread where a doctor was still defending the use of T for older athletes. With all we know a lot of educated people still do not grasp that any tiny thing you do(that is prohibited of course) is against the rules. You cannot raise you T lever from 150 to 155 even, although it is more likely people raise it to 800+ if they do anything at all.


And why so many would fail, because it is a very tight and narrow band of things you can do if you were a professional athlete, and AG'ers just have no idea what a nit pick it is to be clean using todays rules.
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of AG would fail a doping control. They simply don't know whats on the list. Lots of RX and OTC stuff on that list.

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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
How fast are 40-45 these days and do we think the speed in depth is down to; aero, coaches, training alone?

I just aged up to 40-44 this year and I'm amazed at how much I've dropped in the results compared to my peers. I'm definitely slower and requiring more time to recover than even 2-3 years ago. I know I'm not the only one getting slower as part of the aging process, so I'm pretty sure there's a lot of hot sauce use in my new AG.
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [T3_Beer] [ In reply to ]
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If you are FOP as the oldest in your AG and you age up and get crushed there may be other factors at play
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
If you are FOP as the oldest in your AG and you age up and get crushed there may be other factors at play

Ha - I went from MOP to lower MOP, nothing that dramatic.
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I agree on Phelps. I have some more specific reasons, but they still basically amount to speculation. However, I do think of Phelps as a "generational talent." Which I think is important, because if you believe Phelps to be a generational talent, it makes it that much harder to justify a lot of the other folks whose names get trotted out with that same phrase. When you start having people trying to convince you that, all of a sudden, we've just got boatloads of generational talents - and in the same sports no less - that raises my eyebrows.

Really, really special athletes simply do not come around that often. And, most of the time, being a generational talent in no way precludes doping.

For me, with Phelps, it comes down to a couple things.
- Bob Bowman identified him really, really early as a physiological special athlete. He said something to Phelp's mom along the lines of, "your son will be an Olympic champion some day." This was when he was like 9 or 10. So it was obvious pretty early he was special.

- Per the above, Bowman has never (to my knowledge) been implicated in any sort of doping scandal, or even any sort of "shades of grey" (a la Team Sky). He's also had very good success with other athletes. When you have a coach with a proven track record of success who also has not been implicated in scandal, I think that goes a really long way.

- Phelps was a phenom even before he started winning everything. He made the final for the 200m fly at the 2000 Sydney Games as a 15 year old. He was the youngest male swimmer in 68 years to make the US Olympic Team. That's extraordinary. Especially in a (relatively) long event like the 200m fly. Contrast this with any number of athletes who "appear out of nowhere."

- Phelps has himself talked about just how long his development cycle was. One of the most salient points Phelps made in his Congressional testimony - something that was, I think, lost on most non-athletes - was when he talked about one of the tell-tale signs of doping being how quickly certain athletes improve. He talks about athletes making the sort of gains in 1/2 or 1/4 of the time it took him. I think this is still not really understood that well even by people on this forum. The biggest hallmark of doping is NOT the performances. It's the development cycle - and the speed of recovery.

One of Trevor Graham's Sprint USA group that turned informant for USADA spoke about this. She said that on THG they went from doing maximal effort sprint workouts once every 10 days to once every three days. The workouts themselves were unchanged. What changed was how often they could do them.

- Phelps peaked, at most, once a year. And really more like once every four years. And he was a notorious "homebody." He trained with Bowman basically 24/7/365. Compare this to some athletes who seem to be able to peak repeatedly. Or to maintain a peak across an extraordinarily long period of time (e.g. they are racing A-performances repeatedly from March to October, or and sometimes even longer...). And in some cases they do it all while traveling from Europe to South America to Australia to the USA, etc, etc.

Phelps was extraordinary. But the way he achieved his success was not. Great coach. Hard work with remarkable consistency. Outstanding physiology.

There's no really weird stuff. You don't ever hear reports of Phelps having a bad race, going back and doing 2-3x as much training, and then decimating up a world record. Whether he had a good race or a bad one, he was fairly consistent with his training and approach to preparation.

- Swimming is also, knowing some elite coaches, pretty open with regards to training. Like, there were a lot of other athletes who trained with Phelps. I know that Bowman was pretty open about sharing workouts. Maybe not Michael's performances in those workouts (though he shared even quite a lot of this). But the actual workouts. And I don't know anyone who said, "oh, that's crazy. Nobody can do that..." Contrast that with some athletes where the fundamentals of their training programs simply defy belief.

I think what's most shocking is the suspension of disbelief that you see for any number of reasons. People come up with so many reasons not to suspect the performances of athletes that they "like" (for any number of reasons). Forget the backstory. Look at the fundamentals.

But that's incredibly non-romantic. It's super depressing to think that way. And what does a fan really get out of knowing (or thinking) that a performance is suspect?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of AG would fail a doping control.

Not according to some of the people I've talked to off the record at USAT

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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realAB wrote:
Lots of AG would fail a doping control. They simply don't know whats on the list. Lots of RX and OTC stuff on that list.

Care to get specific? Or are you just fear mongering?
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Re: Just assume your favorite athletes are doping [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
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Lots of AG would fail a doping control.


Not according to some of the people I've talked to off the record at USAT

Thanks for your insight (seriously). As a half decent AG'er (and an old one at that - 55) I choose to take the high road and believe that anyone who beats me is: More gifted, training harder, racing smarter, etc. I welcome any tests because I have nothing to fear. Moreover, nobody I know cares so much about the sport and so little about their long term health as to go to the trouble to "mess around." Call me naĂ¯ve, but believing what I believe keeps me involved and trying hard day in and day out.

enjoy the journey

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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