In triathlon, open water training is extremely important if you are performance oriented. But very few group do it properly with specific purpose. That is the main issue at this point.


While my squad isnt the norm, from june to mid september, the group will do 90% Open water, 10% pool.
The 10% pool is for when the condition are not good in the lake, lightning, big storm, cold weather etc.

Mostly everyone is swimming faster than they ever did in there life in races. Results speak for themself.

That said, the open water sessions are very controle, with timer/clock, course/boey, accurate mesure distance, race simuation. Me as a coach on a paddle board at all time, video when needed.

Overall, what i see is, the swimmers become very skilled at the open water game and can keep up with much faster pool swimmers than they use to. I see it as a no compromise approach. we train in a very specific manner to replicate the nature of our sport.


Unless you have access to a structure quality group, i would not recommend this 90/10 ratio but definitly a 30/70 open water to pool ratio. There is a lot of time to be gain in open water. A lot more than in the pool during race season months.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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That sounds amazing.

So even without that, I am still leaning towards at least 75% OWS 25% Pool until I can hit anywhere close to my pool pace in a race.

I guess my question would be this: Are you a good swimmer in the pool and just have difficulty in open water? Is there a big drop off in your OW ability compared to your pool ability? There are definitely some things that might be making you slower outside (i.e. not swimming straight, poor sighting technique, difficulty with pacing and drafting). OWS really is, in many ways, a very different sport than pool swimming. However, if your difficulties are not open water specific problems - it probably does not matter all that much where you swim. If they are open water specific problems, you can work on drills either inside or outside to fix those problems. If you do decide to do most of your training outside, just make sure you are continuing to do speed work....it is just like everything else - if you only swim slowly in training, you will only swim slowly racing. In the end, I think you might be best served by swimming in the spot where you had the opportunity to swim with a group of fun, motivating people who were slightly faster than you.

Depends on your definition of good. However my race pace OWS swims tend to be at about double the pace as my pool swims, and involve a lot of near drownings and gasping.


I am not arrow straight, but that is not my problem. Just plain old fashioned OWS panic (which I never have in the pool)


Swimming in the pool seems not very helpful at not drowning in OWS though. Sure it is good for pace.. but not all the OWS specific stuff (breath during 3 foot swell, etc)

The more swimming the better. I have only been able to get in a pool like 3 days a week for the last 6 years. But this year I have made a real effort to also try and get in 3 days a week
of OWS. I sure feel it has made me more comfortable during the swim in a race.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But say you had 5 days a week to swim. How many in each?

I think the less OWS comfortable you are, the more of those should be OWS.

A pool is better because the feedback loop is constant. Jonny brings the feedback loop to OWS, I agree that would be amazing!

For the rest of us, unless you have that feedback loop in the open water, you should do the vast majority of your swimming in the pool with the strict guidance of the pace clock and counting of strokes.

So this is traditional slowtwitch thought. Which I think may be good, but only for AWESOME open water swimmers.

Should I really worry about dropping my pool pace from 1:30/100 to 1:20/100, when my last race I was like 3:30/100 ?

Or say someone that does 1:30 / 100 in the pool but 1:50 / 100 in OWS.. seems like they need to bring down their open water times more than they need to drop another few seconds in the pool...

I never use a pace clock at the pool. Or ever count my strokes. For 99% of folks, it is just getting in the swim time. For the 1%, great, it might help but
I am happy with my 24 minute 1.5K swims.

I swim 3 days a week for an hour in the pool. I then try to also swim another 3 days a week OWS for an hour each.

This has nothing to do with comfort. It is just swimming. I do feel the OWS's for an hour are much harder, both physically and mentally than pool swims,
where one stops all the time.

But we all know my training is totally wrong.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'd OWS in a lake once a week. I'm not open water or wetsuit averse, not in the slightest. Murky water, sea weed, getting kicked, etc... don't bother me. For those who are, obviously more OWS is better.

That's a backyard lake.

If I lived in say Kailua Kona I'd swim in the bay every single day and would never go to the pool. Except maybe with a coach or to get a video made.

I find it hard to believe that someone who swims 1:30/100 scy in a pool for 1650 or 2000 yd straight, would then swim 3:30 per 100 yd for 1650 yd/2000 yd in OWS. This 2;00/100 yd diff is just too great to be even remotely believable. Either you're going 1:30 for a single all out 100 in the pool and then lack endurance, and/or your OW swims are way long, which would also be highly unusual in tri where the swim is much more prone to be short than long, IME. If this 2:00/100 yd diff is really true, you must be extremely anxious and stopping many, many times during the swim???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hehe want to watch me? I can accept this challenge! (Though I am not really at 1:30 for 2k yards straight, but I am definitely under 2:00 for 2k yards straight. 1:30 is more my 100y pace).

I normally stop ~45 times during a swim race.. little float, little gasp..little belch... hang out with the lifeguards for a while... total panic attack.

I am very comfortable in the pool.. can do flips, laps all day. OWS I am usually the opposite (although not always, last night I went in a nearby lake and swam .7 miles in 20 flat). Some combo of OWS + race crowds are killer....

Sounds like it mostly has to do with the crowds at the rae rather than an OWS thing. At your next one, make sure you start way to the outside, the masses tend to want to crowd the inside of the course. You should be able to find clear-ish water somewhere, which might help.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Not sure, I did a tri with a pool race and did pretty okay (no stops). Took the far outside last race in a lake swim, still flailed.

I did one summer 100 percent open water. Never went to a pool and had my best swimming season in triathlon in the last 15 years or so. Now with a 25 m pool with lane swim open around 6-10 hour per day that is a 10 min jog from work, I am only doing open water on race days and a few camps per year. Before I used to open water swim a ton because there were no pools nearby....now I pool swim a lot because the pool is even more convenient than open water, and my wife feels more comfortable if I swim at the pool than solo in open water. I'll still end up swimming open water around 15 times over the summer.

OK - I think we are starting to get to the bottom of this - a bit. It sounds like your problem is swim panic - not lack of OW swimming experience. You can swim until the cows come home in a lake - but I'm not sure that would help with swim panic...unless it is wearing a wetsuit that makes you feel anxious, then I think that more experience in a wetsuit might help. It would also be great if you could practice open water starts with a group of people... it is not the same as a race - but it is getting closer.. if you have some good friends who are willing to jump on top of you while you are practicing these swim starts... even better.

The two things that have helped me a bit with swim panic are:

a) playing water polo - people are actually trying to kill you in the water - so you kind of get used to the feeling of people grabbing onto you an pulling you under and kind of get OK with it after a while.

b) when I do my swim warm up, I swim out to the first buoy and count my strokes (usually the first third of the swim). Then when the gun goes off, that is all I focus on - getting to 21 strokes...or whatever it is. One, two, three... Sometimes I make a little contest with myself - I wonder if I can get there in fewer strokes than my warm-up? Let's see...usually by the time I get to the first buoy, I feel much better and then just settle into a very relaxed rhythm for the middle part of the swim. If I am feeling good, I pick it up for the last third. The mantra I like to keep in my head is "long and strong" (PTSD from my HS swimming days - my coach would say that to me about 10 times per day). If I get dunked, I think to myself - "you can handle that - you can hold your breath for a long time... way longer than this brief little dunking". There can be a lot of chaos around turn buoys - so I just psychologically prepare myself for that and know that things will clear up quickly once I am around the turn.

I have had people beat the crap out of me in the pool. Didn't really phase me.

Water polo sounds like fun, may be kinda hard to find a team in rando city, USA

"I have had people beat the crap out of me in the pool. Didn't really phase me."


Hahaha. That's good. Keep trying that and see if it gets any better. Maybe you should have them try a little harder.

This is very poor advice. Getting in swim time with no purpose or structure is not much more helpful than staying home. The problem many people have with swimming is they don't work very hard. Lack of hard efforts and poor technique mean they go very slow.

This isn't about some silly 99% vs 1%. It is just the proven way to get faster in the water. If you have 6-7hrs a week in the water, you are far better to do that in structured workouts where you are working hard. If you can do that OW, go for it. Otherwise, stay in the pool and get friendly with the pace clock.

That's your problem. Not enough short hard efforts. That's how you get faster at swimming.

No, it's not. Quite the opposite. Swimming uncomfortably is how you get faster.

So, it's not an OWS vs pool time question. How hard do you want to work to become a better swimmer?

On a somewhat related note. I know lots of decent pool swimmers who can't swim for shit in the ocean... but that's another thread altogether.

That is more my interst

It starts by training with short, hard efforts.

There is also changing from a tight, pretty gliding stroke to what I call the "gorilla" stroke. Big, wide, higher recovery, more powerful and adaptable timing to wave/current conditions. Watch some ITU races...

If this were the only way to do it, why are not all the folks who take masters, have coaches, etc. not swimming 20 in the 1.5K?

I just always love the advice to folks that it can ONLY be done one way for everyone, at any age, etc.

It was interesting to swim in Masters with some folks who would kill me in the pool with timed stuff. But some were always amazed when I beat some of them on race day in the swim. :)
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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just a little more food for thought: do you practice sighting while you swim in a pool? It may sound stupid but, in order to swim successfully in open water, you need to be able to sight effectively while maintaining your body position and stroke mechanics. I've had friends who look great in the pool turn into a total mess while swimming in open water trying to sight every 6-10 strokes: their head gets way too high, their hips drop dramatically, they nearly come to a complete stop, and it takes them 2-3 strokes for them to get their rhythm/momentum back.

It sounds like the majority of your issue is anxiety but incorporating sighting into your pool swimming might help a bit.