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Home > Forum > Triathlon Forum > I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard

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I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard
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astrotri
Nov 11, 05 9:18
Post #1 of 10 (1390 views)
- Marshall sees a pack of drafters
- They hang-out to see who the offenders are
- Jot down their bib numbers
- Snap a photo of the pack with a digital camera
- Move on to next group

It's easy to keep, sort, and add to a list of bib numbers and number of penalties using a computer program (this would take 6 lines of C coding or 4 of Perl); this list is referenced as someone leaves T2 and if they have a penalty, then hit the sin bin and wait it out or take a hike for being DQed.

Triathletes aren't stupid, we can understand rules just like basketball players, football players, and the rest. We can chose to bend the rules or break them but at the risk of being penalized. There doesn't need to be an immediate accounting of penalties by pulling over racers, if someone is drafting, they know it and can bitch and complain while in the penalty box.

Why should officiating be any different in our sport than any other? The decision on rules infractions is at the discretion of the referee.
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Re: I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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jhendric
Nov 11, 05 9:26
Post #2 of 10 (1365 views)
They should just remove the bike portion of triathlon. Screw it.
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Re: I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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cdw
Nov 11, 05 9:30
Post #3 of 10 (1348 views)
You cannot stop drafting via the enforcement method. You can try, but it won't end until athletes decide not to cheat. Just like capital(sp?) punishment doesn't stop murder and prison time doesn't stop crime. The world is full of people who don't believe the rules apply to them. Nothing will change that.

Awards are nice after races, but in the end, the race has to be about what you do individually. This is why I prefer to do the same course over and over from year to year. No matter what others do, you can race yourself and look in the mirror at the end of the day to be satisfied. People complain about drafting (I've done it) because they think someone unfairly "profited". So who cares?

Actually, all of us do. We crave recognition. So some people cheat to gain that recognition. The cycle is vicious. So choose to get out of it.

Chad
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Re: I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm
Nov 11, 05 9:35
Post #4 of 10 (1332 views)
Perhaps Jimmy R. or someone from WTC or IMNA will add their 2 cents. It's not hard, it's just not enforced.
clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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astrotri
Nov 11, 05 9:36
Post #5 of 10 (1330 views)
[reply]You cannot stop drafting via the enforcement method. You can try, but it won't end until athletes decide not to cheat. Just like capital(sp?) punishment doesn't stop murder and prison time doesn't stop crime. The world is full of people who don't believe the rules apply to them. Nothing will change that.[/reply]

That's why I think this solution works- the application of penalty does not interfere with people drafting. Drafting should be treated like someone illegally parking in a handicap spot at the mall:
- meter-cop comes by once and writes a ticket
- meter-cop comes by second time and writes a ticket
- meter-cop comes by third time and tows the car

I'm all for drafting at races! I don't do it but will gladly let others do it because if it means having them DQed coming out of T2, then I can struggle on the run all I want and still feel righteous.
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Re: I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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lowcountry
Nov 11, 05 10:08
Post #6 of 10 (1295 views)
As I stated in another tread on IM enforcement, the problem is the draft marshalls. They do this once or twice a year, are in awe of the spectacle/participants, and freeze on the course. That's why you see marshalls "escorting" packs. I know what goes through their minds: "the t-shirt ain't worth this".

The best marshalling crew I've ever seen was a group of touring pros from a British cycling team. They were precise, fair, and unmercifully thorough. The RD was in near-seizure mode when he saw the results. But, he recruited them. So...

No, there is no problem with USAT refs. They are well trained and experienced. And, I'm sure WTC will develop a similar program. But, if anyone ever employs a system that provides British-cycling-team marshalls... All I can say is, be carefull what you wish for.
Jim
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Re: I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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CTL
Nov 11, 05 10:13
Post #7 of 10 (1287 views)
In Reply To:
You cannot stop drafting via the enforcement method. You can try, but it won't end until athletes decide not to cheat. Just like capital(sp?) punishment doesn't stop murder and prison time doesn't stop crime. The world is full of people who don't believe the rules apply to them. Nothing will change that.
My criminal law professor said that they did a study once and found that the death penalty did deter crime. After all, no one on whom it had been applied ever committed another crime. Locking people up keeps them from committing crimes against anyone except other inmates and guards while they are locked up and therefore does reduce the overall crime rate. If you want to stop deliberate drafting that is against the rules (because you can use the draft legally while passing) and that affects the results (because I don't care if some MOPer goes a little faster on the bike because of drafting even if they beat me, another MOPer, as a result), then you need a punishment that really affects people that draft.
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Re: I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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cdw
Nov 11, 05 10:13
Post #8 of 10 (1282 views)
That's why I think this solution works- the application of penalty does not interfere with people drafting.

The problem then becomes one of judgement. All drafting calls are judgement calls. Marshalls will tend to err on the side of absolute caution in order to avoid undeserved penalties. Thus, issuing one penalty is going to take a fair amount of time and if you don't have 50 marshals all over the course (I'm not sure even 50 is enough with 2000 athletes) then there are not going to be many penalties nor deterrent for drafting.

Also, we are looking at this from a competitors point of view. The organizer looks at it from a business point of view. More marshals I have to pay=less money in my pocket. More penalties given=more unhappy customers.

Ultimately, though it comes down to this conclusion made by the organizer--people are selling out my races a year in advance, so why do I need to change one thing that I am doing?

Chad
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Re: I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard [CTL] [ In reply to ]
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cdw
Nov 11, 05 10:21
Post #9 of 10 (1271 views)
I did a paper once on the deterrent effect of the death-penalty and I agree with you. However, I said those things didn't STOP it from happening. We can deter a few people with the current system, but until penalties are more of a deterrent--I would submit the current penalties are not--then drafting will go on.

It will also continue as long as race directors are not required to hire more draft marshals. At small races this is not so practical. I doubt race directors are getting rich and more marshals will cost money. Many races don't have draft marshals at all. However, I would guess that WTC has plenty of money for more marshals but no motivation for hiring more.

Chad
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Re: I don't know why this draft solution stuff is so hard [lowcountry] [ In reply to ]
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astrotri
Nov 11, 05 10:36
Post #10 of 10 (1247 views)
[reply]The best marshalling crew I've ever seen was a group of touring pros from a British cycling team. They were precise, fair, and unmercifully thorough. The RD was in near-seizure mode when he saw the results. But, he recruited them. So... [/reply]

As an advocate of draconian totalitarian law I'd love to see those kind of officials at a race. The only way authority gains respect is by application of authority.

Know why the 900lb gorilla gets to do what he wants?
Because he is a 900lb gorilla.
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