depends on what you excel in.



if you can climb well, then a race like IMC or LP would be good for you. if you can't climb but handle winds well, FL.

going to also depend on how your body handles humidity/heat.



i've had a friend do IMLP the last 2 years, it's been almost perfect temps, 18-20 C whereas canada has been 35C+ for the past 2 years...i'd take a little more climbing to get out of the heat.

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

General rule of thumb is IMFL +30-45 minutes = most other IMs. The usual caveats apply.

ot

I race the same in just about all the conditions I've been in. Heat/cold doesn't bother me. I actually really like climbing, so hills do not matter to me.

Well damn...my math is a bit off today. Proceed.

ot

Any particular reason? I know IMFL is viewed as an easy course, but it's an IM no less. Plus wind, waves, and darkness really freakin early.

I'm a flatlander, and I did 112 training rides in 6 hrs give or take pretty easily.

At IMLP my bike was 6:45 or so

the math works for me

No way is IM Florida 30-45 minutes faster than most other IM races. I did the race in 2003 and way way more fit than when I did my first IM at IMC in 1999. I biked a 5:21 at IMC and a 5:05 at IMFL. That year I would likely have been in the 5:12-5:15 range at IMC based on my fitness and seeing the splits of others that I raced against throughout the season that did IMC. I haven't done LP yet (hopefully next summer!) so I can't compare that one. My swim was a few minutes slower at IMFL than it was in Penticton or Roth so there is some time difference there. WHile Florida is flat which is nice, there are also no downhills where you can coast and if it gets windy any bike ride can be hard. The most difficult thing about any ironman is the distance and weather conditions, not the flatness of the course. I figure IMFL is about 10 minutes faster than IMC but it is hard to compare.

Looking at race results.

For IMFL this year, in M35-39, you need to get down to 41st place before you see someone riding less than 21mph (winners time 4:55)

IMUSA this year, same group, most of top ten where under 21mph avg. (winners time 5:23)

There is a big difference in the level of competition in the age groups from IMFL to IMLP. There are many people that race Florida with only one goal ..... the Kona slot almost a full year out. This is why I put up with rides in rainy, 5C weather in Ontario and did a 24 hour drive down in 2003 :) There was no roll down in the M35-39 in 2003 since everyone went there looking for a slot. It took around a 9:45 to get it. Also, the bike times don't tell the overall tell of how fast you'll be. At IMC you can cruise the final 20k of the bike with the big downhill leading into Penticton. If you take advantage of the Florida flatlands and hammer the bike for 180k you can get a very fast bike split but have trouble on the run.

I don't think there's really a good way to compare this sort of thing but I'll throw this out there. My friend who races as a pro did CDA, Germany, Hawaii and Florida this year. He said Florida was the hardest due to the wind and heat. He went considerably faster at both Germany and CDA.

Nice job everyone at Florida. I had a great time. First IM.

John Spinney

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http://www.mountainmettle.com

Not sure where you got your "rule of thumb", but it's completely wacked! It's too bad many think Florida is so damn easy. Seems most people I talk to are more sore after that race than at Kona. Pro times also haven't followed your ideas thru the years.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

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I was not commenting on the "easyness" of one race over another. Staying aero for 112 is hard.

Someone asked about times not easyness. If you want to PR, IMFL is a good place to do it (although it may not be easy).

Again, M35-39, IMFL top 24 went under 10 hours. IMUSA only top 6. IMCanada only top 7.

Thanks for the clarification. That said, is that the case over a number of years. I've seen races fluctuate quite a bit year to year, some years fast, others slow.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

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I think 30-45 is a pretty good number as well.

I know a local who did the swim and bike as a relay at our local IM in September. She biked a little over 30 minutes faster at IMFL than she did here (knowing she didn't have to run afterwards) and still ran a nice marathon to get a Kona slot in FL.

Another example. The OA winner at our local 1/2IM in September on the same course as above did IMFL in a time that was LESS than double his 1/2IM time here. Yes, his pace was in FL was faster than his 1/2IM pace here. This is a sub-10 Kona qualifier I'm talking about.

Huge packs on a flat course equals very fast bike times. There is no denying it. The Pro's don't benefit the same though because they can't form a huge pack, but for the 10-12 hour age grouper the bike times are way, way fast at FL compared to other races.

Yep, the 30-45 minute is definitely a realistic number. Not for everyone, but for a lot of folks it definitely applies.

This has nothing to do with easiness. Everybody pushes just a hard.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

[reply]Huge packs on a flat course equals very fast bike times. There is no denying it. The Pro's don't benefit the same though because they can't form a huge pack, but for the 10-12 hour age grouper the bike times are way, way fast at FL compared to other races..[/reply]

I still disagree with you. And speak for yourself as far as the packs on the bike. Yes, there's drafting, but not by all of us. I think the real issue is that it's at the end of the season for many that live in the north, and the fitness is much better. Also, the weather's usually great. As I said, the pros don't go that fast there, and as they race pretty much year round, I think that's where you'd see the difference if it's that fast. In the past, very fast pros have not gone anywhere near as fast as, say a Roth. Maybe you see the bikes times as fast, but as the sport is triathlon, the run times indicate what the ride takes from you. But, I'm sure it will be a never ending debate.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

I think it is not realistic to compare times or use "in season" races. If one is training properly and peaking for that "A" race, in this case IM-FL, the other races should be far from one's best possible effort.

Then, once freshened up and toe the line at IM-FL...tear it up. Gotta compare 'rested for' races to other 'rested for' races.

I would agree that IM-FL is one of the most competitive AG IM races in N. America. All about the Kona slots.

And, not all the AG'ers are out there drafting like it was legal! Some...but probably not even most.

Usually some fast Euros in the mix too.

Having only done the IM Wisconsin Course, I can't comment directly, but I would guess that the 'flat' course of Florida would provide faster bike times for all, regardless of drafting. (You can draft in the hills also)

I certainly know that I can easily hold 2-3 mph higher average speed on a flat ride with a lot less fatigue than I can on a hilly ride.

[reply]Having only done the IM Wisconsin Course, I can't comment directly, but I would guess that the 'flat' course of Florida would provide faster bike times for all, regardless of drafting. (You can draft in the hills also)

I certainly know that I can easily hold 2-3 mph higher average speed on a flat ride with a lot less fatigue than I can on a hilly ride.[/reply]

But remember over the course of 112 miles you never stop pedaling, and the effort stays pretty damn intense the entire way. The split may be faster, but as I sadi before, I think the run suffers as a result. I know that my fastest runs have been on somewhat hilly courses, as the muscle load is distributed to more muscle groups.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

Allan, that difference tends to compress as you move to the front of the pack (and you are up there!). I'm thinking along the lines of the MOP'r....an 11-14hr person and all the comparisons I've seen indicate a 30-45min (on average) benefit at IMFL.

Some guy here at ST (Konaby?) just pulled a 5:14 bike split on 168w average. Thats funny.

ot

Well, I guess you missed my points entirely.

No the Pros wouldn't benefit from the packs. They are out front riding by themselves much of the time. 30-45 doesn't apply to Pros. Simple as that.

I didn't say anything about drafting. I said packs. Legal packs, illegal packs, congestion. Call it whatever you like, that fact is IMFL has one of the most concentrated number of bikes on the course due to size and course layout. Everyone knows this. It isn't even debatable.

When you start seeing people with avg. bike speeds at IMFL faster than their 1/2IM and Oly avg. speeds, well you know you've got yourself a very fast bike course for an IM.

My examples are not about people that live up north and they raced well all summer. Also, my specific examples all ran very well and earned Kona slots so it isn't like they blew themselves up on the bike.

For the MOP AGer IMFL IS the fastest course in North America.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

Just say it's the fastest race, regardless of your parameters. To virtually diminish anyone's time because of your preconceived notions is a bit presumptuous. I know of no one who did their 1/2 Iman pace there, and that's at least 18 people.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

Hey,

I don't know what your problem is. I'm not just making stuff up to try win some argument. I'm just telling you what the numbers tell. Bike times for MOP AGer at IMFL are faster than other IM's.

I'm not virtually diminishing anything. I'm just stating what the numbers say. Surely you aren't going argue the IMFL is slower than IMLP or IMWI are you? I mean a flat course with 2300 althletes has to have some impact on the bike times don't you think?

Here are my examples. All 2005 races, all Kona qualifiers at IMFL.
6hr bike at local IM - 5:29 at IMFL (female)
5:20 at 1/2IM - 10:44 at IMFL (female)
4:45 at 1/2IM - 9:44 at IMFL
4:59 at 1/2IM - 9:55 at IMFL (IM Pace faster than 1/2IM)

This takes nothing away from anyone accomplishments. The did an IM and they did it fast.

I think the fact the IMFL is a competitive AG race does even more to make for faster bike times because that puts more bikes up near the front and everyone benefits. The Pros, starting 15 minute earlier, it makes no difference to them.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

tri-3 you might be interested in this race report from IMFL:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=605447;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Validates 100% the faster time theory. 48 minute PR and packs on the bike course.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T