I wasn't front row at LP, but still got a beating. I would say I was at the back of the FOP. I was behind the pier by a good 50m or so. 2000 people swimming together and you are bound to get knocked a little.

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Canadian resident again 10/31/2009

Yes, it's crowded, and you are bound to bump into people. But side to side bumping from not swimming in a straight line is different from getting run over. In the next paragraph he complained about the guys swimming over him, and why they couldn't sacrifice 5 seconds to go around. Well, why couldn't he sacrifice 5 seconds by starting a few rows back?

I just think it's funny that so many people complain about getting run over during the swim, when they could avoid it by seeding themselves correctly.

I find it a hugely difficult thing to seed myself correctly. Up front a little too much, I get run over from behind. Too far back, I'm the one doing the swimming over, which is damned near equally frustrating, but not quite as scary. Where the heck is the middle, because it never seems to be where I think it is. I'm a 1:10 or so swimmer and I'm already dreading the mass start at IMUSA 2006.

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Elivis needs boats.

Doing IM Moo....I figure I'm looking at a 1:20 - 1:30 swim....first IM for me...should I be basically at the end of the train, seeding-wise?

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

 I'm a 1:10 or so swimmer and I'm already dreading the mass start at IMUSA 2006.[/reply]

Here's a tip. Go to the inside of the buoys. It was fairly clear sailing there the whole swim. The only ugly part is getting back into the pack going around the turns but it wasn't that bad at all.

I swam 1:10 at LP this year. First loop was 34:XX and was where I took the most hits. Loop 2 started out fine. No bumping or fighting at all. I think I basically got to the buoy to turn around before the fighting started again. Coming back in was on again off again fighting. As you reach the shore, its a bit of a dog fight.

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Canadian resident again 10/31/2009

I agree with you with not starting at the front. If you can not swim with the fast guys you are going to get run over. There are always people that do this in every race and in running races as well. You know the people that you pass within the first 200 meters of a running race.

Why is it that everyone seems to swim an arc to the first turn around and not a straight line?

I think they should put flags up, kind of like the pens that big Marathons use. Sub 50 minute up front, 50-53 in second group, and so on. If 20,000 people can start a marathon in a more constrained area than startign 2000 people shouldn't be too hard.

And before the "if we aren't starting together then it isn't the same race" whiners start jumping in. I know they use timing chip in marathons so you can get a 'chip time'. This isn't really feasible in the water and I don't think a difference of 25-50 meters is going to make a difference, especially if everyone has a less violent swim.

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"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN

Are there cases of 'swim-rage'?
I would think it has to happen on ocassion?

One guy swims over another, the guy that got swam over gets pissed, grabs the other guys leg and pulls him back and punches him in the face???

That's gotta happen sometimes, right?

I for one have come to relish the body checking, leg slapping, swim/swum over, craziness. Just protect your face and you're good. That said, if you are not a solid sub hour IM swimmer, stay off the front lines.

The ONLY folks who are out for blood are the front row gang (they are all ex-wasserballers; they REALLY love the contact) otherwise it's mostly people trying to make it to T1 with their goggles intact. My water polo friends in fact brag about the people they put the smackdown to and treat their IM's as a swim race followed by a cooldown bike and run;-)

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Mr. Uncaptured External Costs

Fossil carbon is planetary poison.

[reply]I think they should put flags up, kind of like the pens that big Marathons use. Sub 50 minute up front, 50-53 in second group, and so on. If 20,000 people can start a marathon in a more constrained area than startign 2000 people shouldn't be too hard.

I still don't think that will work since everyone seems to believe they are going to swim faster than they do. Self seeding never works since the arrogant macho dudes will never place themselves near the back even though they should. Who do you think is beating on you? :)
I was happy to be at the back. People are nicer back there. ;)

Almost every race it amazes me the slower swimmer that have to be right at the front of the line. You know ironman is going to be crazy, and the try to seed you. I'm with you on this.

I'm not the greatest swimmer but I've started in front in some races and didn't get run over.

It's easier to swim around someone than it is to run them over. My guess is that he started to breast stroke, his legs were low in the water where they couldn't be seen by the people swimming behind him, and then tried to start swimming again when someone was right behind him.

When I pass someone, (not too often) if they swim a straight line and keep their feet high in the water, it's no problem going around them.

jaretj

yes, for a 1.5 hr swimmer, start out at the back and to the side.

The key (as it sounds like you are realitively new to IM) is that you have a "pleasant" swim. Put it in context: your swim isn't a race, it is the first hour of a long 13 (?) hour day and just when you need to set mental tone of, "just keep moving along well and comfortably". What ever you gain in comfort and mental tone in that first hour will be repaid to you 5X (in time and overall positive experience) later on.

1:20 - 1:30 puts you around 3/4. At IM LP 1:20 was 1321 out of 1836. You can certainly let the initial mass of people go and then swim at your own pace. If you want clear water, stay to the outside and swim in a straight line PARALLEL to the course until you get close to the turn buoy. I think a big mistake people make is to start to the outside, but almost immediately try to get to the middle.

As a rule of thumb; I figure if I can see you at the start, I am too close to the front and should move back! I am, however, always amazed at where other people start who swim even worse than me. At Madison, I started about 4th row, trying to seed myself, and had to fight to get around slow swimmers the whole first lap. I can not imagine how frustrating it must be for you fast guys. Do you have friends in Madison peeing in the lake each night trying to keep it warm enough to be a no wetsuit swim?

Good luck at IMOO, I will follow your day on-line. I hope you have a lot of fun.

Gar

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"Why do they keep inventing new ways to celebrate mediocrity" -

Swim rage? Count on it.

At one race last year some yahoo was leaning on me for about thirty yards, trying to push me of a great drafting line. I put my hand on his shoulder twice, and pushed him away. The third time I took a high recover and delivered an elbow to his jay... he moved away.

At another race I was pacing nicely with another swimmer, and we started to ease past a slower guy who was apparently taking a recovery break. I got about halfway past him and he sped up, pulling slightly ahead, and then veered across my bow (and I had a good line). As soon as his knees started bumping my mlbows, he started the Bruce Lee kick like he wanted me off his ass. I figured it was roid rage...

I myself use thE Bruce Lee kick on anyone who decides to swim over me instead of around me.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Thanks we try to pleasant in the BOP. We figure we have a better chance of surviving the swim if no one is out to drown us....so we are nice to everyone.

~Matt

started towards the front of IM Germany and my 1:08 split got my a$$ good and kicked... as it should have been. Seeding flags would have been much appreciated.

When I am self seeding myself I try to ask the people around me what they are trying to swim in and adjust my positon accordingly. It's funny to listen to people though, at one point before the start at IM Arizona I asked the person in front of me how fast he wanted to swim and he said 1:15 and I asked the guy behind me and he said 0:55. I thought WTF! and then moved a little over and found some people saying 60 min and 1:05 and figured that would be good enough for what I was hoping for.

I wonder what that 1:15 guy felt like?!?!?

In years past, I've swam in the traffic along the cable, enjoying not having to sight but paying for it by being pummeled. At LP this year I lined up about 20 yards back from the start line, and about that far from the inside of the course. I would guess it took me all of about 20 seconds to make up the distance to the start line. The start was pretty uncongested for me. I stayed to the outside, venturing a couple times towards the cable to see how traffic was, but finding it too crowded, I kept going back out to a line about 25 feet out from it in clear traffic. In the end, I was out in 1:06, which was a 10-minute swim PR for me.

You all seem to be missing the real point here, it is Ironman that causes this problem. Every race mentioned here is an Ironman, and why. It is because of their moronic stance on not having wave starts. If you start 1500 to 2500 people in the same wave, it will be a mess no matter what you do. There is no seeding scheme, no flag line, no honor system that will work. There is just way too many people to put in the water at once, and fire the gun. Every other race that you do with wave starts(which i s just about every race), the bumping and grinding problem may last a minute or two, then clear water. Yes, you have to pass slower swimmers in earlier waves, but that is out in the open water later into the swim, lots of room, and everyone is spread out by then. Bang your heads against the wall all you want trying to figure out a solution, but an email to Ironman would be the most constructive...

[reply]Are there cases of 'swim-rage'?
I would think it has to happen on ocassion?

One guy swims over another, the guy that got swam over gets pissed, grabs the other guys leg and pulls him back and punches him in the face???

That's gotta happen sometimes, right?[/reply]

Yes, it happened at IM LP this year to someone I know. Dude actually stopped during the swim and threatened to kick his ass. Ridiculous.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

i find it difficult to swim seed as well. i have found some clean water swimming on the inside and couple of rows back. but the turn buoys are a mess, but its the best alternative i have been able to come up with. my swim times at imf have ranged from 1:08 - 1:13.

the worse swim rage i have experienced was at the fla 1/2 IM when some a-hole pulled off my timing chip. it was at a turn buoy and i yelled you a-hole you pulled off my chip, his replied well you cut in front of me. freaking half twit. anyone the race volunteers got a new one on me in t1 in seconds.

peace,

rf