Same - the amount of aggressive douchebag men, I have encountered over the years is crazy. I used to be able to hold my own as a runner and cyclist, and still was routinely aggravated by packs of aggro dudes drafting, cutting me off, being rude, you name it.

I have had words with more than one rider after a group ride in which they decided to yell at the pack, or ride dangerously - but the attitude is never contrite.

So, yeah - some AG FOP men have the same experience.

As for all the "not all men" whiners who feel so defensive, why don't we focus on the actual assholes that make the sport unpleasant rather than the semantics - typical male fragile egos.

IM USAT

Oops, thanks!

This stuff is going to happen with such a mix of abilities. So.....what's the solution? Can somebody point to (if there are any) rules to be an IMPRO that you have to be within a certain time of the front or some sort of baseline to clear? Many sports have guardrails like that. Clearly the bar isn't high enough to get the pro card, but there has to be some sort of criteria to keep it. Is there not a rule in place like that? I get that there are "bad races" but there are pros that have no business racing in the pro field and their times are consistently below that of their comparable AG'ers.

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Cheers, Ray

Link below for the US, see on page 2.


The problem seems to be it's on a relative basis: if only "slow" pros show up at 3 races, and one finishes within 8% of them time-wise, they can become pros themselves; and there is no required minimum time that would be specific to each qualifying race.

https://teamusa-org-migration.s3.amazonaws.com/USA%20Triathlon/Migration/Documents/2023%20USAT%20Elite%20License%20Triathlon%20Qualification%20Criteria%2032923.pdf

interesting. appreciate the link!

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Cheers, Ray

One of those MPros here who would have their liscence revoked if some people on this forum had it their way. Just giving my $0.02

Having been in the FOP of the AG race for a few years I can say that men have complained about unsafe behviour too... at least the ones that want a fair race. Many have been complaining for years as the congestion, draft-pack and dangerous riding is super common. This was a big contributing factor of me taking the pro card: too many pace-lines and super unsafe riding (both for themselves and the others around them) I was just done. I didn't realize until I was out of it truly just how absurd the race conditions are at that area of the race. Sure its not a huge group of guys acting poorly, but its big enough of a group that its seriously unsafe. The pro women (or any racer) shouldn't have to deal with this bs. Regardless if you think they deserve their card, they got it fair and square and deserve fair and safe racing, plain and simple. Also revoking licences will not help this problem (maybe other problems but but thats a different conversation) if they were to go back to the AG ranks you still strong swimmers with the same problems, just the incidents would happen a bit earlier on the bike course and they wouldn't get the same amount of attention because they are AG racers and not pros. When I was younger and closer to MOP I've seen the same hyperagressive behaviour back there too.

And yes, these grade-jerks on the bike act worse to women than the men, I've seen it first hand on and off the bike, if you're a women in tri, or have close buddys that are, this is clear as day. So to the people that are saying "not all men", like yeah, of course not all the guys in every race were acting that way, there would be sooooooooo many awful accidents every single race. Yes generalizations aren't great but if it reeeeeeaally bothers you that much maybe try to have such a postive impact on the problem to prove that "not all men" is undeniable. Lets focus on trying to help, call out behviour when you see it, ride safely yourself, make your concerns on safety known to the officals and RDs, and if you actually are FOP you're probably a role model back in your local tri community, so lead by example, actually listen to peoples experiences etc.)

Also, USAT tightening their elite cards doesn't help as many other national governing bodys have loose requirements as well, (speaking as a foreigner).


Cheers,

The other easy pathway is the USAT-points score. It's two races in the top 0.5% of last years performances. It's something like 106 as the score you need to hit. That's fast, for sure, but not really that fast. The scores can also get weird depending on how the race was the previous year and the form of people returning to do it again.

USAT parameters are a joke compared to rest of the world. You can see that by the sheer number of random pros which finish hour(s) after the winners.

Yeah they are loose but I think thats a rather American-centric view.

Spain and Canada essentially have no qualification standards. But you don't see as many of them hours behind because they are much smaller countries with less people doing triathlon. And the BOP Spainish athletes aren't in American races because they race in europe (just like how americans generally race in america).

Other european and south american countries also I presume to have very lax rules. I don't know their criteria off the top of my head but you see germans, dutch, french, brazilians, argentines etc. very far back in the field. But they are also smaller countries and the BOP pros generally race closer to home and not as many at big American races. I think the problem is also compounded with not as many lower tier pro-fields in america, if there were more B or C tier pro-races around I'm sure the slower pros would much rather race those.

It is a big world and a big sport :)

It's not about revoking licenses, but about having the right number of people lining up, and in the right order. We'd need:

-Races to be less overcrowded. That's the first one to fix. It hurts everyone's experience and safety.

-Referees to be more useful/active.

-The creation of elite men and women groups. Said elite groups have referees with them. It's done at many run/tri races already, it works.

-Stricter criteria to become pro. Otherwise one goes to elite.

And on the OP - it is unsafe everywhere and for everyone on an IM course. At the front with the fast careless idiots who race in a selfish way; and at the back with the slow careless idiots who don't know how to ride a tri bike, turn, or descend.
More men are offenders, because more men are at the front, and more men are racing overall. Stupidity knows no gender.

When one gets bumped into, no need to assume it's because of their "freaking fragile male ego". It very well could be, there are idiots out there, but sometimes it just happens.

If someone gets yelled at it's usually because someone is being a douchebag by partaking in drafting or some illegal activity. Part of the blame is 1) morals--race clean or don't race at all 2) if you're yelled at for being in a group...it's not the seemingly aggressive athlete but the drafters who are the douche.

So many athletes out there willing to cheat flat out just because they can't hack it on their own or don't see a draft marshal nearby (ala Kevin Moats). I saw this in my last race & everyone just seemed to be ok with it...as if it was a group ride. Such a crock. These are not "athletes" they are frauds. If someone is pissed at you for drafting with a group and yells--sorry but you have it coming & whatever else they do to break it up. Because you're literally "stealing" their hard work and efforts with your lack of hard work. Ride clean folks!

Something I recognized at kona is that in the US we drive on a different side of the road than in other countries. And not everyone on the course speaks English. Meaning some racers are used to riding on the left and passing on the right, nor know what you are saying. Food for thought.

This is an interestingly American thought.

A significant majority of the world drives on the same side of the road (LHD). And most triathletes that come from a RHD country, come from English native speaking countries.

The fraction of Ironman athletes (i.e. whealthy on a global scale) who live in a RHD country which is non-English native, haven't learned English as a second language, and have not raced/traveled enough to be used to LHD traffic is tiny.

I just checked the Dutch criteria out of curiosity and you can get a pro licence with a top 10 result in an Ironman or Challenge race provided you finished within 8% of the winning time. There are some other possibilities, for example for talents, but they have to submit a cv with results, goals, name of trainer etc and this application will then be handled by the national coach together with the technical director of the Dutch association. Doesn't look that easy imo.

Yeah I'm Dutch and speak English and we also drive on the right hand side, but when I hear someone yelling "On your left" the first thing I think of is that that person tries to convey that something interesting is happening on the left side, like a beautiful scenery. I would rather expect "Attention please" if someone wants to pass.

(Your last point is entirely valid.) After this 'it's the same in Europe' line was trotted out for Valencia (v long start list) a fortnight ago, I looked at the experience of Oceanside (over the years), and Gran Canaria and Valencia (as comparator 'first' race of the 2024 season in Europe)

Well here's the checkback.
Today in MPro (Valencia), 70 men finished within 30 minutes of Bergere. ONLY 5 finished > 30 mins behind. Data not available on how many of the 90 started. But minimal USAT licensed - style tail.
So the USA v European basis for any outrage (@dcpinsonn) is shown in these data. And thus, perhaps, the greater need for a longer gap between MPro and WPro in USA venues to cope with these quasi-pros.

Before that, I would have a look at power data of both 8:30 dude and the pro guys he beated

How is this acceptable? Imagine someone posting: The amount of spiteful women I've encountered over the years is crazy.....routinely aggravated by packs of petty girls complaining.....I had words with them but their attitude is never contrite.....as for the 'not all women' why don't we focus on the actual bitches rather than semantics - typical overly sensitive women.

You'd get kicked off the site.

No they should not "forfeit their cards": hey Rodriguez fails at Oceanside on that measure. But I do think that retaining a Pro licence ought to be dependent on at least one decent performance annually (with exemptions/abeyance for long term injury/rehab). As to power files, I suggest that Andrew Hall (the "8:30 dude") biked alone (maybe some with Chad Bykerk) and ran a 2:54 to finish it. So likely his power will have to be higher than the #28-#35 MPros (same average bike time to Hall's 4:36, which btw was the same speed as Matthews) as they will have benefited from being in a train, some of the time.

As one of those former Elite license holders who many here are saying I was not deserving I will share my thoughts. One is you (not you specifically) cannot compare AG to Pro races. They are separate even though they are on the same course. Many pros are not racing "their own race" like I was when I was FOP AG. They try to stick with a group on the bike and sometimes you blow up which leads to DNF or a shuffle on the run. So times of BOP pro to top AG are not really comparable.

As far as the qualification path. Sure it might be easier than many places but re-qualifying after 3 years is not that easy. I believe it is still needing to finish within 8% of winners score which if one is that far back they will not do (I did not but I turned pro in 2018 so I had the whole COVID seasons and just stopped racing). So sure becoming a pro might be realitively easy but staying one is not. And honestly I think too many people care too much about BOP Pros. How does that impact anyone else? I went pro because I thought it was my only chance and I wanted a new challenge. I knew I was not going to win races but I also wanted to be able to tell my kids that just because you can't win at things does not mean you should not make a jump and challenge yourself.

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Twitter - Instagram

As a MOP athlete with a terrible swim compared to my bike- help me out here. I raced IMTX last Saturday. I spent a lot of my bike split slowly passing people. At one point on the first southbound leg on the Hardy, I could see a pack of 20-30 riders ahead of me bunched up 2-3 wide. It took me about 10 minutes to catch them and when I did, I moved to the center lane to pass them. My NP for the day was 165 and I put in a solid 2-3 minutes at 220+ to get around the pack and put some distance between us. Annoying to see, but all good, or so I think.

However, within another minute I start getting passed by multiple riders on my left who are tight together who then move directly in front of me. I ease up to back off to legal distance, and as I do, I get swallowed up by the pack I just put a big effort in to pass. I am suddenly in the middle of a 3 wide 20-30 person pack and there is no easy or safe way out of it.

At that same time, we pass someone riding on the shoulder yelling at all of us for cheating, which I understand bc if you took a snapshot of me at that moment it definitely looked like I could have been cruising along in that pack for miles.

I eventually just sit up on my base bars, stop pedaling, hope the people behind me are paying enough attention, and let them all pass. Eventually I make another effort to repass (this time on the shoulder on the right side bc the middle lane was congested as well) and it was close enough to the turnaround that I never got repassed once I had the tailwind.

I had zero intentions or desire to draft or cheat, and was only in the pack for a few minutes, but it felt completely unavoidable. I was racing with. other friends and they all had similar experiences. No desire to cheat or draft and yet found it unavoidable without being reckless. If there hadn't been a turnaround and a change in wind direction I legitimately don't know what I would have done. I guess just spent my race going slower than I needed or wanted to to stay entirely behind the pack? I suppose that is the answer, albeit it a frustrating one if that had been the entire day.

All that to say - I wonder how many people in that pack were like me and just caught up and didn't know what to do and how many were intentionally drafting for miles and miles? If you had asked me before Saturday I would have said the latter.

This was pretty much my experience as well. I came out of the water with TONS of people and things got crowded once we hit the Hardy. It was impossible to avoid the packs. I was passed on the right many times and no matter how many times I dropped back or surged ahead I found myself in a pack shortly thereafter. I felt like there was nothing that could be done, I just tried to make sure I was being as safe as possible when I had riders on my left and right, especially when going through the aid stations.

I think this is all great. but as someone who isnt American can someone tell me what the difference between pro and elite and AG and how it could help rider safety? I've seen it mentioned with USAT before but I've never seen it at any race.

I guess I can kinda excuse the slow careless idiots who don't know how to ride a bike, they often don't know better and sometimes things happen and the race conditions are often not at all conducive to riding safely, but we apologize and try to do better next time. But the faster riders who are are at the front of the race should know better. At least for myself its not that I assume every sketchy incident is intentional but its the large number of times someone does something unsafe and I tell them "that was/is sketchy, please stop/dont do it again" and you get hit with tons of expletives or "what are you going to do about it?"s etc. that makes me think its an ego thing. Maybe not always specifically a male ego thing but the overlap on the venn diagram is there. Maybe talking about that isn't going to help solve anything but its good for me to vent my frustration lol.

But circling back I agree that the focus should be on making things safe for everyone, (eg. less crowded courses, better refereeing), and then focus on things that help smaller groups of people (e.g. pro-fields regulation and safety).

Finally going back to the spainish racing, they had Peniscola Infinitri the weekend after Challenge Canaria/70.3 Valencia and in the next 4 weeks have 3 bronze tier races in spain alone Tri Xilxes, Half Pamplona, VI Half Gasteiz for these slower-pros and 70.3 Mallorca, Lanzarote, and Challenge Salou in the same timeframe for the faster pros.


While in the US in that same timeframe you only have the white-lake half for the slower pros and then StG and Chattanooga? While much lower on the tier list of rider safety I would think that with more lower tier racing option that the slower pros would self regulate where they race and solve some of these problems.

Also works to shout, "PASSING. STAY RIGHT."

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clm
Nashville, TN
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