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How to swim fast...
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I know the Iron Cowboy is the big thing right now but, for a little break from his saga...Now I know Katie Ledeckie has been posted before but I've watched her 800 m from the 2012 oly 4 times in the last couple of days and I really think her stroke is a pretty good model for many people, much better than Sun Yang who is so often cited as a stroke model. She turns over pretty fast at around 88 strokes per minute (spm) and she has the classic high elbow recovery. The biggest thing she shows us though is how much effort she's putting out, i.e. when you watch her swim, you can just see how hard she's working, i mean she is just killing it, just tearing the water up; she is almost sprinting the whole 800 m. She is the complete opposite of Sun Yang who does not even look like he's trying hard, but this kind of very hard effort is what it really takes to swim 800 m in 8:15. So often I hear people say "oh swimming, it's all technique." BS that, to swim fast you have to strong and fit as sh*t, and you need good technique. If you watch the whole 13:45, you'll see Ledeckie get out of the pool at the end; you can not help but notice that, when pumped up from swimming hard, she looks like a small body-builder, with a very small waist and large shoulders. She did not get this build from swimming easy; she got it by swimming her buns off.

So, swim HARD and you too will get faster; maybe not 8:15 for 800 lcm, but faster. Enjoy this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHbNKX3VkIM


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Ledecky has very solid technique, but the fact that she looks like she's working so hard means that it could probably be improved. That said, maybe this is the fastest stroke for her. I've really come to believe that no one stroke technique fits all. Watch this Janet Evans video and you'll see what I mean. Her stroke is atrocious. Like, terrible. I have no idea how she sustained that kind of windmilling for 1500 meters. Ledecky has a much smoother, more efficient stroke, and those high elbows are definitely worth emulating, but she's no Sun Yang. If you watch him underwater, he's barely kicking at all (whereas Ledecky is maintaining a 6-beat kick, which for some of us is a real energy burn). Just incredible how much power is generated from Yang's shoulders and catch. His stroke is beautiful to watch.

Definitely true that Ledecky (and every other swimmer in the Olympics) works her butt off - it's mind-blowing how much time they spend in the water. I'm sure she does her share of strength training, too, although I read somewhere that when Missy Franklin started training for the Olympics, she couldn't do a pull-up. I'm sure she can do a whole load of them now.

If you're willing to swim 80,000 yards a week, which these swimmers are doing, then you will get faster. No doubt about that. But the challenge as a triathlete is optimizing your technique so as to maximize the effect of the yardage you do put in. I swim 15,000 yards a week, and I'm constantly working on technique. Every lap. Yes, I work hard when I'm in the pool, but I do believe that a lot of my gains at this (low) yardage will come from improvements in technique.

Thanks for posting the video. Here are two more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FlDy3YmDQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02I7GFwYuw
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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I'm with you Eric. Way too many people watch Sun Yang vids these days. He is somewhat of an outlier, while Katie is definitely a better choice to emulate.
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Re: How to swim fast... [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Really interesting to watch these videos of amazing swimmers.

As far as swimming fast is concerned, shouldn´t the progression go - for an adult-onset swimmer, at least, be:

-get your stroke sorted, be that through individual coaching/online programme/posting vids on here
-add volume (and fitness)
-add speed

It seems to me that skipping any of these three stages would lead to failure.

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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Have to agree re effort. I've watched videos of open water 5ks and 10ks and you don't see any Sun Yangs out there. They all look like they're killing it the whole way. Ditto when I watched the pros at ITU Chicago last year: it was basically a mess of white water the whole way and they all had turnovers of 85+spm with many of them appearing to be sniffing 100spm.

...now if only I could hold a strike rate like that for more than 100m :p
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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I completely agree. Certainly when a swimmer is in a body position disaster or a complete disconnect with basic concepts that is low hanging fruit to take care of that will stay with them for a lifetime. At some point though the Pain Cave is where it happens to truly get into the fast conversation. Once my coach said more or less 'you have a good grip on the basics now get ready to barf'.....I knew the honeymoon phase of working on technique every day was over. I'm still fully engaged mentally when I swim on keeping it all together, but it's very little drill work at this stage it's just busting ass. No question there are some drills mixed into sets every week, but it's a tiny dose of the overall picture now. All I need is a chirp from the deck on a buzz word to get my mind alert to where I might be slacking on something and I can fix it. These days I find as long as I set the rhythm and tempo of my freestyle to my kick everything syncs up quickly during warm up and I'm feeling it from there on. Far cry from when the water used to feel vastly different every single day! It's bizarre to me now, but I rarely think about my catch and pull it just happens on auto pilot now. When I wanna go faster I just think about speeding up my rotations by adding a bit more temp to my kick. Complete reversal of how I used to think about my swimming. Not saying it's the way everyone should, but it works for this 'ol dawg.

Speaking of which....9am pain session on tap seeeeeee ya.....
Last edited by: tigerpaws: Jun 28, 15 5:35
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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, realizing this was the absolute key for me to getting faster in the water.

I actually also think the level of technique required to swim fast isn't anywhere as near as high as a lot of folks (esp swim coaches) make it out to be.

I wish there was a device that could measure power delivery to the water per stroke in real time, and then put that number right over the swimmers in televised events as they go along. It would dramatically change how people view swim, and put the correct weighting on power, compared to technique.

There are plenty of kenyan runners who run sub-5-min miles for marathons, and look like they're just taking a stroll in the park on a easy day, because they're so fantastically fit as well as genetically gifted with the right body type for the sport. This absolutely also occurs at top swimming. The big mistake people do in swimming is that they look at that 'relaxed Sun Yang stroke' and conclude "wow - its' all techinque because it looks so easy for him!". Note how people NEVER make that mistake in running - you don't look at them and say "wow - if I just get Kenyan technique in running I'll be going 5-min/mile for marathons too!" (ok some of them do, but get a rude awakening when they run the marathon barefoot and don't come close to 5min/mile!" - what most people say is "wow, those Kenyas are so fit that they make a 5min/mile look like a stroll in the park!" In reality, I'm certain that for swimming fast (past the beginner level, at least - a pretty low bar) people should be thinking a lot closer to how we view the Kenyan runners as opposed to Sun Yang and his 'magic technique' - monster fitness = smooth looking technique. (The swim events like the 800 are admittedly closer to sprint-type events, so even Katie Ledecky will look like she's busting rear in them.)
Last edited by: lightheir: Jun 28, 15 6:48
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Re: How to swim fast... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Yep, realizing this was the absolute key for me to getting faster in the water.

I actually also think the level of technique required to swim fast isn't anywhere as near as high as a lot of folks (esp swim coaches) make it out to be.

I wish there was a device that could measure power delivery to the water per stroke in real time, and then put that number right over the swimmers in televised events as they go along. It would dramatically change how people view swim, and put the correct weighting on power, compared to technique.

There are plenty of kenyan runners who run sub-5-min miles for marathons, and look like they're just taking a stroll in the park on a easy day, because they're so fantastically fit as well as genetically gifted with the right body type for the sport. This absolutely also occurs at top swimming. The big mistake people do in swimming is that they look at that 'relaxed Sun Yang stroke' and conclude "wow - its' all techinque because it looks so easy for him!". Note how people NEVER make that mistake in running - you don't look at them and say "wow - if I just get Kenyan technique in running I'll be going 5-min/mile for marathons too!" (ok some of them do, but get a rude awakening when they run the marathon barefoot and don't come close to 5min/mile!" - what most people say is "wow, those Kenyas are so fit that they make a 5min/mile look like a stroll in the park!" In reality, I'm certain that for swimming fast (past the beginner level, at least - a pretty low bar) people should be thinking a lot closer to how we view the Kenyan runners as opposed to Sun Yang and his 'magic technique' - monster fitness = smooth looking technique. (The swim events like the 800 are admittedly closer to sprint-type events, so even Katie Ledecky will look like she's busting rear in them.)

Almost anything in sport that is viewed as binary absolutes will be wrong. Swimming hard will get you to a point. Working on technique will get you to a point. Working on both will get you much further than either approach in isolation. Some of the technique will come as you get fitter, but other aspects must be learned. If you have a shitty catch, you will never swim fast no matter how hard you work. If you drop your elbows and somehow cock your wrist to still catch, that might work to get you faster but will eventually limit your performance.

So, if your goals are to be among the best, you need technique and effort. If your goals are to be a solid mid/front pack age group triathlete, working hard might be all that is needed.
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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Eric,
I noticed your frame after swimming the 400 at one of the Grrand prix events earlier this yeatr. You are right hard work and technical skills are a must.


futrmultisport.com
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Re: How to swim fast... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Here is a good video of Clayton I found yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5vkQfkhVrc
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Re: How to swim fast... [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Yep, realizing this was the absolute key for me to getting faster in the water.

I actually also think the level of technique required to swim fast isn't anywhere as near as high as a lot of folks (esp swim coaches) make it out to be.

I wish there was a device that could measure power delivery to the water per stroke in real time, and then put that number right over the swimmers in televised events as they go along. It would dramatically change how people view swim, and put the correct weighting on power, compared to technique.

There are plenty of kenyan runners who run sub-5-min miles for marathons, and look like they're just taking a stroll in the park on a easy day, because they're so fantastically fit as well as genetically gifted with the right body type for the sport. This absolutely also occurs at top swimming. The big mistake people do in swimming is that they look at that 'relaxed Sun Yang stroke' and conclude "wow - its' all techinque because it looks so easy for him!". Note how people NEVER make that mistake in running - you don't look at them and say "wow - if I just get Kenyan technique in running I'll be going 5-min/mile for marathons too!" (ok some of them do, but get a rude awakening when they run the marathon barefoot and don't come close to 5min/mile!" - what most people say is "wow, those Kenyas are so fit that they make a 5min/mile look like a stroll in the park!" In reality, I'm certain that for swimming fast (past the beginner level, at least - a pretty low bar) people should be thinking a lot closer to how we view the Kenyan runners as opposed to Sun Yang and his 'magic technique' - monster fitness = smooth looking technique. (The swim events like the 800 are admittedly closer to sprint-type events, so even Katie Ledecky will look like she's busting rear in them.)

Almost anything in sport that is viewed as binary absolutes will be wrong. Swimming hard will get you to a point. Working on technique will get you to a point. Working on both will get you much further than either approach in isolation. Some of the technique will come as you get fitter, but other aspects must be learned. If you have a shitty catch, you will never swim fast no matter how hard you work. If you drop your elbows and somehow cock your wrist to still catch, that might work to get you faster but will eventually limit your performance.

So, if your goals are to be among the best, you need technique and effort. If your goals are to be a solid mid/front pack age group triathlete, working hard might be all that is needed.

Exactly.

I've heard of guys like Cesar Cielo spending hours in the pool, after the main workout is done, just working on some minute technical detail. Technique absolutely matters to the elite level.

I also got a pm from another member of the forum who thanked me for explaining what the catch was supposed to feel like. I don't know what his starting speed was, but he improved his 400m time by over a minute overnight. That is obviously a technique improvement.

There is no question that hard work is essential. Just don't dismiss the contributions of excellent technique. Both matter.

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Re: How to swim fast... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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So....what's the catch supposed to feel like?

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
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Re: How to swim fast... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Ummm, can you pass that explanation on to me
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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I swim with a Tri masters group, only two or three (including me) swam competitively during their youth. None (this year) beyond high school or club level. This represents 90% of all Triathlon swimmers, in my opinion.

To be sure I checked on Sportstats for a local sprint and Boise 70.3 results. In the Sprint (no pros) one person broke 10 minutes, that means only one person went under 1:20 per 100. At Boise (including pros) I could find only three (all pros) who went under 24 minutes. The podium did not break 24 mins. After the first page (40) of results, sub 30 was unusual.

Most masters I swim with, never improve. What they swim in September, they swim in June. The only group this year, that improved, was one group of three who started out wildly different, but by circumstance in the same lane. Over the course of the winter began to race each other. By spring they had improved quite dramatically simply, I believe, because they raced each other, every practice (twice a week). They got so good that once, I had to start kicking :0).

The examples that people use as the right answer are of pro swimmers, swimmers who have spent their life swimming, who's livelihoods depend on swimming. All of them developed the stroke that works for their body type, strength potential and aerobic capacity. Not to forget mental toughness (some, because they respond well to various heart medications).

All of those swimmers developed their individual style because as children they raced each time they got in the pool, because they wanted to win. To me the essential element of every swim practice is just that. You want to win, you have to swim to win. How you get there is almost completely individual.

The rest is just an explanation of why the other person won.
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Re: How to swim fast... [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I've forgotten what I said :)

It was just an analogy. I think I likened the forearm to an anchor, set it and move your body past, or something to that effect. The thing about those analogies is that the ah-ha moment for one person is like a huh? for another.

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Re: How to swim fast... [phog] [ In reply to ]
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Great point; I listened to a talk given by Ledeckie's coach on the USA Swimming web site and one of the points he made was that Katie had a great training group. She swims with 5 other guys who also swim the 200/400/800/1500 and she is in the middle of the group, with 2 or 3 faster and 2 or 3 slightly slower guys. Thus she races these 5 guys at every practice and hence has kept getting faster.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How to swim fast... [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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all ears on the catch part :)
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Re: How to swim fast... [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Yep, realizing this was the absolute key for me to getting faster in the water.

I actually also think the level of technique required to swim fast isn't anywhere as near as high as a lot of folks (esp swim coaches) make it out to be.

I wish there was a device that could measure power delivery to the water per stroke in real time, and then put that number right over the swimmers in televised events as they go along. It would dramatically change how people view swim, and put the correct weighting on power, compared to technique.

There are plenty of kenyan runners who run sub-5-min miles for marathons, and look like they're just taking a stroll in the park on a easy day, because they're so fantastically fit as well as genetically gifted with the right body type for the sport. This absolutely also occurs at top swimming. The big mistake people do in swimming is that they look at that 'relaxed Sun Yang stroke' and conclude "wow - its' all techinque because it looks so easy for him!". Note how people NEVER make that mistake in running - you don't look at them and say "wow - if I just get Kenyan technique in running I'll be going 5-min/mile for marathons too!" (ok some of them do, but get a rude awakening when they run the marathon barefoot and don't come close to 5min/mile!" - what most people say is "wow, those Kenyas are so fit that they make a 5min/mile look like a stroll in the park!" In reality, I'm certain that for swimming fast (past the beginner level, at least - a pretty low bar) people should be thinking a lot closer to how we view the Kenyan runners as opposed to Sun Yang and his 'magic technique' - monster fitness = smooth looking technique. (The swim events like the 800 are admittedly closer to sprint-type events, so even Katie Ledecky will look like she's busting rear in them.)


Almost anything in sport that is viewed as binary absolutes will be wrong. Swimming hard will get you to a point. Working on technique will get you to a point. Working on both will get you much further than either approach in isolation. Some of the technique will come as you get fitter, but other aspects must be learned. If you have a shitty catch, you will never swim fast no matter how hard you work. If you drop your elbows and somehow cock your wrist to still catch, that might work to get you faster but will eventually limit your performance.

So, if your goals are to be among the best, you need technique and effort. If your goals are to be a solid mid/front pack age group triathlete, working hard might be all that is needed.

While what you say sounds logical, I still don't think technique contributes as much as people think to triathlon swimming.

For an elite swimmer or even top AG masters swimmer, 0.8seconds may be the difference between 1st and last in a sprint event. You'd better have darn perfect technique in that case - it really matters!

But for AGers I don't think those minute details matter much. Even good AGers lose a lot more than that in sighting and navigation in OWS than from some small technique limiter.

To date, I have NEVER seen a 1:50/100 swimmer who looked clearly powerful enough to outswim me at 1:25/100, and was just limited by technique. Not a single one. I have, however, run into plenty of fast swimmers, like 1:10 and below pace, who look much sloppier and ugly than even I swim, but it doesn't seem to matter for them - they hold way higher turnover than I do, and pull MUCH harder.

Again, if you made JasoninHalifax strap one arm to his back AND made him put on a loose baggy t-shirt in the water, he would STILL beat the vast majority of all typical AGers in a Oly OWS leg. It's hard for me to believe that technique is so key for getting to the FOP of triathlon when he can definitely do it with such messed up hydrodynamics and even technique. You could make him swim a doggy paddle, and he's still have the same result!

Competitive swimming, though is different - the margins of victory are much smaller, and they tend to be already maxxed out on swim volume. I don't think most AG triathletes even come close to maxxing out swim volume while triathlon training.
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Re: How to swim fast... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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You aren't looking at it the right way.

If I were to swim with one arm tied behind my back and wear a loose baggy t-shirt, my pace, relative to what I am capable of, would plummet. I don't know by how much, but it would definitely be noticeable, even without a clock.

In a similar vein, if there were some kind of "power limiting device" I could strap on that would prevent me from applying full power to the water, I would still outswim many / most triathletes, because the rest of the technique is solid. (actually, such a thing exists, it is called an "anti-paddle" or something like that).

I've watched a LOT of help my swim videos, and they run the gamut. Some are basically solid, and they just need to swim faster. Others are clearly trying to generate power, and are probably generating ample amounts, but it isn't being applied in the right direction.

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Re: How to swim fast... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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As stated above, everyone tends to develop their own stroke. Having watched these videos for the first time, without a doubt Sun Yang has the best stroke from a textbook perspective - imho. He also appears more relaxed with smaller wake or turbulence at his back. The more rapid arm swings of the young gals might be a product of their age, so it might be relatively short lived. Sun Yang will still be fast 10 years from now.
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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Oh swimming how I want to love thee despite the repeated punches to my groin you give me. Never been passed by a 70 year old woman on the run before.
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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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So powerful! trying to put the swim time in so hopefully in the future I can move to MOP. The most I can do is 2-3K yards per session for 2-4 times a week as time permits.
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Re: How to swim fast... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I always think it's useful to remember that top swimmers can KICK 100m LCM in under 60 seconds. So anyone worrying about the fine details of arm technique, where the elbows are, etc, if you can't swim sub 60 from a push for 100m LCM, none of that stuff can possibly be the difference between you and someone who can kick sub 60.
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Re: How to swim fast... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
To date, I have NEVER seen a 1:50/100 swimmer who looked clearly powerful enough to outswim me at 1:25/100, and was just limited by technique. Not a single one. I have, however, run into plenty of fast swimmers, like 1:10 and below pace, who look much sloppier and ugly than even I swim, but it doesn't seem to matter for them - they hold way higher turnover than I do, and pull MUCH harder.
Again, if you made JasoninHalifax strap one arm to his back AND made him put on a loose baggy t-shirt in the water, he would STILL beat the vast majority of all typical AGers in a Oly OWS leg. It's hard for me to believe that technique is so key for getting to the FOP of triathlon when he can definitely do it with such messed up hydrodynamics and even technique. You could make him swim a doggy paddle, and he's still have the same result!

Competitive swimming, though is different - the margins of victory are much smaller, and they tend to be already maxxed out on swim volume. I don't think most AG triathletes even come close to maxxing out swim volume while triathlon training.

Except that in swimming, you finish the swim and that's it. In triathlon you've still got between 90 minutes and 12 hours of hard exercise to do. A more efficient stroke for the same time is extra fuel and speed on the bike and run.

People who get out of the water feeling fresh (because they're attuned to the swim through technique and sufficient volume) are going to do better than those who hammer it to gain a few extra seconds.

I think we can all agree however: most people should swim more.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: How to swim fast... [NealH] [ In reply to ]
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NealH wrote:
As stated above, everyone tends to develop their own stroke. Having watched these videos for the first time, without a doubt Sun Yang has the best stroke from a textbook perspective - imho. He also appears more relaxed with smaller wake or turbulence at his back. The more rapid arm swings of the young gals might be a product of their age, so it might be relatively short lived. Sun Yang will still be fast 10 years from now.

He has a fabulous stroke, if you are 6'9". Ryan cochrane has been fast for quite a few years. Compare his turnover rate with yang's.

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