http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/

This should help figure out target pace.

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A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance

My suggestion would be to get a 10k race time put into the schedule soon, and work off of that. Someone with your experience and natural ability probably overshoots the ability of a 5k to predict, so you need something that's going to provide some realistic performance metric. Problem with that is with the Hanson program being very moderate-distance focused throughout, you probably feel very comfortable in the 6-12mile range with no problem maintaining pace.

Hard part for the Hanson plan is I don't believe it goes past 16miles for a "long run," even though there is a 10-miler the day before? Personally, I'd have a runner do some goal pace runs at the tail end of a 20-22miler...there is a big difference between the 16 mile point and the 22. Much better indicator (physically and mentally) of realistic goal pace.

I wouldn't ditch the Hanson program because, 1) it's a good one, and 2) you're well into committing to the schedule, however I would say to bump two of the longer runs up to the 18 and 20 mile range, and throw in a goal pace of 3-5 in the second half of each one (modify the speed/strength run if you need to for the week). If you're feeling good with your goal pace (I'm thinking closer to 7:15, though), then I suggest that.

Good luck

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http://www.reathcon.com

I'm at about the same place as you with the Hansen plan, so I cant really say if it will work or not, so far I like it. I can say that I run with a group of men in their late 40's to mid 50's who have used the plan a bunch of times to run at around your goal pace. They were able to hit their goal by running the workouts at the correct pace, so perhaps you are right on track. How are the long runs going, this weekend is 15 for me, i found the 14 tough after the preceding days, I was running on fumes.

So, I dunno. Sounds like you need to take it out at 3.05 and see how it feels? Your 10 mile tempo runs should be a good indicator, especially if you are covering them at 6.50.

We are supposed to get 2-3 feet of snow and howling winds for my long run, I'm not really getting the quality so hot on the snow covered roads, but getting one foot in front of the other. Good luck, when's your race? I'm doing a 30k instead of a marathon last weekend in March.

How do you race?

Some people can perform at a much higher level during a race due to adrenaline, excitement, competition etc. Your recent 5k time and mileages look decent for that marathon pace. Personally I would shoot for 3:05 (or better) because I know I race better than I train. What marathon are you running? Are you training on similar terrain? Are you doing a full and proper taper before marathon? If you aren't - or can't - that will hurt your marathon time.

As others have mentioned - I think a long run is a terrific indicator of how you can hold up for the last 10 or so miles. Since you've already run a marathon you know it's basically two races - a 20 mile race with a 6 mile race tacked on the end. This 6 mile race is what will make or break you. I'd try and hit a 10 miler or so and then try and double it the next day at marathon pace +10 or 15. If you feel Ok running 30 in two days at that pace I think you'll be more than ready as long as you can stay healthy.

Dude are you my identical twin?
No offense but 3:05 is ambitious (but possible), regardless of how "easy" it feels to run 8 miles at sub-7 pace right now. You say the 15-miler hurts now? How about the 8 easy miles the day before and after? I wouldn't expect the ole S-S-M mileage sandwich to ever feel all that great.
{Now my 5k is about 18:35, with far less weekly mileage due to some injuries and a switch to triathlon training since 2010.}
... Anyway, I also somehow managed 60 mpw for a few months a few years ago & ran a 3:04 at age 37 (but into a 15 mph headwind for the entire second half, so I call that my "3-hour" race). I had PRs of sub-82 for a half, a sub-60 10-miler & sub-36 10K all at that time.
At 42 I did Hansons plan almost to a T and did a 3:09 with not a single mile slower than 8 minutes. I'm proud of that.
18 months later I slacked in winter training & finished Boston 2014 in 3:33 in great pain (But who cares. It was awesome).
I just turned 45 and doubt I will ever run those times from age 30-40 again (even if got back down to 150 lbs) ... Especially with my achilles, Mad calf and all that .
Aging sucks. But injury sucks more. Good luck but I would watch it!

I agree with the comment above. While the Hanson's Plan chart says 16 miles max for the long run, the text of the book states that they don't want people running over 2 1/2 hours in training. I think you should keep the weekday part of the Hanson plan, but also bump up three of your long runs to 18, 20 & 20 miles during this training cycle. I also think you should be aiming to negative split your long runs. Oh, I still like to take the day after my long run off instead of the taking Hanson's prescribed weekday.

As for your marathon pace, MacMillian is pretty darn close. Go with what hi chart says until race day and tweak it while your at the starting line.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

THIS... it is at the very least a good starting point.

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"4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul"

I think you are on track, keep to plan. I personally like to run a half about 4 or 5 weeks (on just a couple of days rest) out of a PR effort Mary. I have found as I age the 5K and 10K times have gone down disportionately to my halfs and fulls. I have seen many sub 3 times with that 5k time (18:34) in tenured runners. Also for me as a 20 plus year runner, the long, long runs do not yield the returns as much as long tempo runs (12-14 miles with peaking at 6 miles tempo pace).

I wouldn't concern yourself with the 5K time, it will go down but this is not the means to the end. It is already at a time that supports that you have the higher end fitness for a 3:05. Your past times are reflective of typical performances I have seen with good runners who have not yet fully realized their potential at longer distances. I have seen many runners with 5K PR's much slower than your old PR of 16:54 and go sub 2:50. So best to forget the old times and focus on hitting your plan goals as getting to 18:00 for 5k in and of itself it meaningless for your goal.

I think your tempo speed needs to come down a bit from my perspective (mid to high 6:30's) and should comprise the back half or the run for >20 minutes with build to >30 minutes at tempo pace.

With some exceptions, maximizing your running benefit at your age will largely come from economy improvements and pushing LT (as a % of max); pushing max is a challenge that Father Time becomes pretty stubborn at resisting. Economy is often the low hanging fruit and has the most upside (or lessening decline) depending on your background.

Good Luck!

I am not familiar with the Hansen definition of tempo as given your goal and fitness 7:05 is marathon pace (slower than tempo). I will assume it is more inline with a long "rhythm run" that builds to marathon pace. Traditionally tempo pace is "around" 10K pace and I am not a fan of running a 10 or 12 miler at that pace. Also, traditional tempo runs were usually well less than a hour total. The long tempo run (or medium long run with tempo pace) should be a challenging run with a a building pace throughout the first half. As with any quality workout the key is to get the dosage right for the most important part of the run. i.e. the part that will push your fitness. In this case it is the "tempo" pace you will hold for a sustained period, too little and it will not push change, overdue it and risk injury or prolong recovery taking from next quality.

For someone with your experience and miles/week a good goal would be to hit the traditional temp pace for >20 minutes to start; so to answer your question; no not the whole 10 miles; likely starting with 3 miles in the back half; miles 7,8,9 for example with cool down for mile 10. So maybe it should be called a 10 mile run with tempo. Through a plan I would build the distance and tempo portion of this run to a max of 14 miles with >30 minutes at tempo (~5 miles) respectively. It is often best to design programs with step backs (not weeks, but with the quality sessions) so you are not trying to bust out a 22 miler the same week you built to the 14 mile "with" tempo. I find this especially true in master runners (exceptions noted).

As for the long run, they are extended versions of the tempo run in makeup (faster back half) although the critical difference is the paces come down (at different proportions) across the board. I would not expect to maintain tempo pace on a long run or if I did it would be just for the last mile or so when it was there (not forced).

I do not want to derail your Hansen plan as I have seen the results can be good; but I will say that marathon training doesn't need to be that complex in terms of plans as the ingredients are fairly straightforward. The danger in the plans is accommodation to the individual. I followed Pfitzinger plans for years, but started to modify them for myself and others with consideration for training history, weaknesses, performance, goals, resilience, research, and injuries.

Cheers!

In my experience, there's really one litmus test to see how realistic your marathon goal pace is. It's not the pace of your regular runs speed workouts. It's longer goal-marathon-paced runs that you do a few times during buildup.

I'm not talking about the 4 or 6 mile blocks you might do. I mean 10-12-ish mile blocks. Maybe a half-marathon race run at goal marathon pace. You should always do a couple of these in a buildup. You should be able to finish them not feeling completely devastated -- unless you've been training right through them in which case you should still be able to finish them at pace.

For every marathon cycle, I pick a tentative goal pace at the beginning and train for that goal. Then, maybe 5-6 weeks out, I'll do one of these runs. Usually I can get through it at pace. But sometimes I'll bury myself and still not make it. If it's the latter, I'll tentatively adjust my goal pace upwards (slower) for the marathon. Yet even then, I'll do another one 2 or 3 weeks out and reassess. Usually, the second one feels a whole lot easier and so I set my goal pace back down (faster) towards where it originally was. Sometimes I'll kill both of them.

That's the best way. If you can't do that in training for up to half the distance, it's not very smart to aim for that for the whole thing. This pattern rarely leads me wrong.

Not a fan huh? Ummm a 10k pace really shouldn't be possible for 10 or 12 miles. ;-). Those are good ideas though on how to insert M pace / mild tempo into longer runs though.

The definition of tempo is the issue here, hence the word "around' in my post. There are many plans that have 10 plus mile "tempo" runs in them with paces above 10K and closer to half marathon. I am not a fan of these types of runs and that is certainly not to say they do not have value for some; but thank you for stating the obvious and maintaining the standard ST contribution to a thread that I have come to know;-)

Some people think "tempo" is one specific pace (or a very narrow range). Like what Daniels calls "threshold" pace. Sounds like that's what you are describing. But even Daniels (in later editions of his book) makes a distinction between "threshold" and "tempo"

Others -- particularly those who were doing them long before Daniels (and Hansons and a dozen others) ever wrote a training plan - think it is a range of paces that varies with the distance; an effort level. That's why people talk about doing 6 and 8 mile "tempos".

Whatever you choose, it's important to define your terms up front or people end up talking past each other.

Always happy to do my part ;-) Off to search other threads for grammar & spelling errors ...
... Anyway I am honestly interested in the value of running BOTH a marathon pace run ( say 10 miles ) midweek AND inserting 3 or more marathon pace miles in the context of a typical weekend long run / progressive run. Obviously the 10 miler will have more benefit but can also be more dangerous I reckon. I think it might depend on age & durability ...

Get a half marathon race in soon. You can't extrapolate 5k to marathon. Half to full is much more accurate. I think your time sounds a bit ambitious - but if you can do a fast half and get the long runs in - you might do it.

Marathon pace is double your actual 1/2 marathon time plus about 10 minutes. It's not based on your best guess of your half marathon pace. It's based on your actual half marathon time. Go run an actual half marathon and report back.

By reading your posts, I don't see anything on how many miles per week you're running. I'm not sure if you're getting in enough weekly volume for a sub 3:05. But that's just my opinion.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

Good work! A few 60 mile weeks ( and a lot of 40s) is all us 3+ hour guys need. Be sure to cut yourself some slack when the conditions are tough. We all know that 40 to 60 degrees with no rain & no wind is ideal. Outside of that I don't kill myself to hit exact paces so long as I know the effort is there. Also be sure to do the Sat & Monday 8 milers nice & easy. As slow as 90 sec to 2 min off M pace if need be. Good luck. ... Getting the marathon itch again myself ...

it's been working OK, I have some problems with my feet that are not going to get better, so I have to respect my limits. That said I have been hitting the high notes pretty well, I did the 16 last week is similar crap conditions, but for the last two weeks I joined a gym for a month so I can do the tu and th runs on the treadmill, which has been very helpful. With the pretty much daily poor footing and need to bundle up, I'm finding that doing the quality inside is working well. Plus, I find the surface is softer and I like not running on a crowned surface.

This week was the back to back 10 milers but no long run, I feel a bit beat up.

The snow has been perfect, so I can't not XC ski, which I have been subbing in for the bread and butter runs or going for an easy hour on the day off. I think for me, a total running mileage in the low 50's with a single long run of 15-16 is a good upper limit.

After my race in late march, I may look at the 1/2 marathon program and do just 3 days of running using the quality days and the long run, then every other week adding a 4th run with the other days being cycling until my late may 1/2 marathon, then work on gaining some speed for shorter races and racing MTB and rolling into cyclocross.

That's the plan at least.