Not sure I can necessarily help solve your situation but can add that I'm in a similar situation. My run is okay-ish but swim is weak and bike needs improvement. Swim-wise I'm already working on it and due to it's low impact nature I think I can just add more swimming to my off season schedule without too much of an effect on other workouts. I'm planning on doing a couple months of consistent strength training after my last triathlon in October. My issue is how to work in my cycling workouts. Offseason I don't want to be doing 15 hours of workouts a week so I'm figuring out how to do that.

the run will canabalize the bike and vice verca somewhat imo. If you want both, you may be best to do a lot of run milage at an easy pace in the offseason and build the volume slowly. Biking you can target more the FTP and harder sets, v02 etc. Ill let others who are more versed in specifics, however when i tried to build my run volume a bit, the best i could do with the bike is pretty much hold what i had. They can impact each other quite a bit, so perhaps several months focusing on one then the other will help

I think this is sounds advice. It's so hard to focus on two disciplines at the same time b/c they can both take so much out of you. Increasing run volume (at an easy pace) can yield significant benefits if you're consistent, whereas, mostly easy efforts on the bike is a waste of time, IMO. Good luck! I'd love to hear from the ST community.

You should look up the definition of "focus".


Less sarcastic version - trying to do both at the same time is not "focusing". Not saying you can't train in both (or even all 3) disciplines during that time, but your "focus" should be on one discipline only. Everything else is just maintenance.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I had decent results last year combining BarryP with the Sufferfest Build plan on TrainerRoad. I did the high intensity rides on the short run days; I cut out the recovery rides just because of the lack of time. I think I started with my short run at 2.5 miles, maybe 3, and then added 1/2 mile to that each month. By 3 or 4 months in my running / HR was the best it has ever been and FTP was at an all time high. I would do four weeks on, take a rest week, and repeat. By Wednesday of rest week I was typically going nuts ready to go again; recovery came very quickly. My schedule looked something like this:

M AM bike / Lunch run 3
T AM run 6
W AM bike / Lunch run 3
TR AM run 6
F AM long bike / Lunch run 3
S AM run 9
S Rest

I will say that the returns come much more slowly than with a single focus, but they do come.

I think you can balance the two of them easily, it all comes down to the timing of your hard efforts and your recovery rate. Doing decent bike training means 4-5x minimum a week on the bike. That's typically 2 hard days and 3 easier days. Running is similar where 4X a week is needed to see some improvements. If you stagger your hard runs and hard bikes you should be able to have an easy schedule. This is assuming you can follow a two a day schedule. Here is how I'd do it with 9H a week:

M - (MORNING) HARD RUN HILLS 45 MINUTES / (EVENING) EASY BIKE 60 MINUTES
T - (MORNING) EASY RUN 60 MINUTES / (EVENING) HARD BIKE 60 MINUTES
W - (MORNING) EASY BIKE 30 MINUTES / (EVENING) EASY RUN 30 MINUTES
T - (MORNING) HARD RUN SPEED 45 MINUTES / (EVENING) EASY BIKE 60 MINUTES
F - (MORNING) EASY RUN 45 MINUTES / (EVENING) HARD BIKE 45 MINUTES
S - (MORNING) TEMPO RUN 60 MINUTES / (AFTERNOON) TEMPO BIKE 60 MINUTES
S - DAY OFF / MAINTENANCE SWIM

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

FWIW (nothing) what I'm doing this winter is a marathon training plan leading to a Late November marathon, so I'm running 6X a week now, focusing on improving my run. I'm also doing the mid-volume sweet spot training plan on trainer road.

After the Marathon I'll switch it up and run a bit less, 3-4X per week (mostly easy), and do the Sustained Power Build on Trainer Road. Hopefully that'll allow me to build one discipline at a time without retreating on the other.

After the sustained power build I go into an Ironman training plan, so we'll see how next years race goes.

Well, that's the question. I do get that they cannibalize each other and that a focus is one at a time. But my question is: will the gains made in the first focus be lost during the second?

For instance, in researching my question I found Desert Dude's "Full Ass Challenge" and that sounds like something I'd like to do. In fact, I'd welcome focusing on one area for a while! I did 3 months of BarryP ramp up in volume last year and it paid off. So, let's say I do that for four months. I have five more months to play with and switch to 2x20's for a few months before going race specific in the spring. Would I lose any run speed I'd gained doing the Full Ass when just focusing on the bike? And would it make a difference if I reversed the order?

There are loads of threads on how to do a focus and the consensus SEEMS to be that you lose a little, but not much, of the run when focusing on the bike and vice versa, but also that FTP may be slightly more perishable than run speed.

And that's the other side of the coin. Go for the slow burn and back off slightly in intensity by not doing true "focuses", don't see as fast gains but hopefully end up in a better place nine months from now.

I don't know.

This is similar to what my gut tells me to do and is pretty close to my current plan (but running longer than November before switching over). But, then, we all know bad training plans based on gut instinct can be!

This.
If you are focusing on more than one thing, you are not focusing on anything.

Pick one.
Do that one thing, a lot.
Do the other 2 things very little.
Or even not at all.

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float , hammer , and jog

Yeah, but again, I'm not asking how to do two focuses at the same time, I'm asking how to schedule two focuses in one off season and if you lose the gains you made in the first focus when switching to the second focus.

I think I'm just going to do Desert Dude's four month Full Ass Challenge and then switch to a few months of FTP building and see what happens.

I opened this thread thinking "yep, it probably can be done," then saw you want to do a run/bike focus. Those two will not mesh. I can see sustaining a higher swim volume and still being able to significantly improve one of the other two (from experience, it can be done), but I can tell you that when I was running more, my bike workouts suffered in the short term. Long term, I was able to maintain at best while sustaining a higher run volume. On the other hand, improving my cycling seemed to have a decent amount of carryover into my running. Last winter, I went from ~240w FTP to ~305w (at 71kg), and my running was still solid despite not doing much at all. The schedule was essentially this:

M - 4k swim (easy day)
T - Hard trainer ride (90min, usually longer intervals 10-20min at 85-100% FTP), 5mi progression in the evening (would push pretty hard on this - starting around 7min pace and getting down to low 6min pace on very hilly routes)
W - 4k swim, another 5mi progression run in the evening
Th - Hard trainer ride (75-90min, shorter intervals <5min pretty hard), another 5mi progression run in the evening
F - 4k swim, optional easy spin 30-60min (usually didn't do this)
S - 2hr+ on the trainer with sustained amounts of sweetspot (80-90%, NP for these was in the 250s-260s by Spring so pretty tough for me), 5mi progression off the bike
S - 2hr on the trainer mostly Z2 to low Z3, watching TV or a movie, maybe a few out of saddle bursts of 10-30sec

Keys - knowing when to back off for a day or two, taking Monday easy on the legs, knowing the difference between a progression run (good) and racing the 5 miles (bad), mixing it up when you're not seeing improvement, mixing up your swim workouts (I like longer pull intervals Mon, sprints on Wed, and some sort of hard set on Friday like 15-20x100 at sprint tri effort getting 15sec rest).

Good luck, improvements can be had in two sports at once, but like another poster said they come slower and consistency is 100% the key!

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"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

Of course you will lose some of the gains you made during one focus.....this is basic physiology. You aren't working at that discipline as hard, so some of the gains will be lost. But you won't lose ALL the gains and that particular discipline will be strengthened overall.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Thanks, that was the answer I was looking for.

Would the order of the focuses affect this at all? Meaning, would you lose less FTP gains by doing that focus first and then switching to only running or vice versa? Or do you think it wouldn't matter much?

No idea....but my gut reaction is that it won't matter once you start regular SBR training again.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Awesome, now I have a plan.

Thanks

I have heard (research-based info...I'd have to do some digging for it) that biking can positively impact running so, if it were me, I would do the run focus first and try to maintain as much of that run speed during the bike focus through strides, short track workouts, etc. As was said before, once you start to do SBR training again, the run will probably come back quickly. This makes even more sense since you stated that your #1 limiter is your run so starting there would be my advice.

Sweet, that's what I was thinking too.

Thanks for the help.

My two cents is that having a focus is working toward a goal. After reaching your goal, you want to switch focus to another sport so you should try to put the reached goalfitness on maintenance mode. Bear in mind you will always lose a bit of specific fitness, but by doing regular 'reminder trainings' you should be able to keep most of it.

Let's say you want to raise your FTP on the bike and you reach your goal after a month or two. After that you focus on running and will do less high intensity work on the bike, so instead of two HIT sessions you switch back to one per week. You get less intensity on the bike, allowing your body to recover more from the higher running demands, but still keep the reached goal on it's idle status without fading away.

You do have to be careful that you don't go to hard all winter, because when the racing season comes you will be focussing on triathlon as one sport, not as seperate disciplines. Meaning you will go hard on all three legs peaking for your race.

That being said, I'd save most of the track workouts etc for when the season is coming closer and spend the deep winter months doing good efforts on the bike/trainer to get that wattage up. That way you become a stronger cyclist but you will get your body ready to be a gazelle on the run in time without ending up with a posture like Sagan.

If it were me I'd do the run focus first. Depending upon how long you make each focus I like the fact that I have some continuous running and more durability as I ramp up a run block. From my experience I also find the bike FTP comes back relatively quickly even after a longer lay off of doing nothing. The final 20-30 watts or so are more difficult to get back. If you are doing a lot of running and maybe integrate 1-2 maintenance rides you should minimize the bike losses but they will happen.

Gordon

I think I'd do it differently than 2 distinct focuses. I'd do it as 3 with a few weeks blended between the focus or maybe even some extra swimming in those weeks

I'd probably start with a run focus then switch to a cycling focus. You can still run often and a lot while riding often and hard. Then a bit before the race season started go back spruce up the run a touch since it's easy to retain cycling fitness vs running fitness.

Don't forget about swimming a bit as the season gets closer.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I was hoping you'd reply. This is one of my comments from a different thread about the same subject:

"A rough sketch of a plan I have is a BarryP period, followed by a Trainerroad FTP increase, going back to BarryP, then more race-specific bike and run builds together in the spring."

Looks like the ST Kool Aid is kicking in!

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. And I won't forget the swim!

Thanks, All, for your help. I think I've got a good plan now. DD's Full Ass Challenge for 4 months, then some FTP building for a few months while dialing back the run a little, going back to the run focus to "spruce" it up, all while maintaining some swimming, then switching to all-inclusive race-specific training in spring.

Sounds like a lot but I'm actually pretty stoked to begin. I'm already antsy after only day 4 of a 7 day "off season"!

If anyone's interested, I'll check back in after 8-9 months to tell how I did.