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Home > Forum > Triathlon Forum > High Volume/ Moderate Intensity 8 months out from LPIM

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High Volume/ Moderate Intensity 8 months out from LPIM
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dizzyingpaces
Nov 18, 14 15:21
Post #1 of 8 (1584 views)
After getting some amazing feedback from slowtwitch on my last thread on HVT vs Low Volume/HIT I needed to follow up with another question, this one is a little more specific.

I am 8 months out from Lake Placid IM in late July. My previous coaches have all been hell bent on moving me away from high volume to low volume citing overtraining as the primary reason, coupled with the need for me to lean much more aggressively towards HIT. They have stated that I need the high intensity to develop speed. I have seen tremendous speed/power/endurance improvements with the approach I was using (self coached) which was moderate intensity, high volume with embedded high intervals whenever I felt fresh enough to produce solid intervals.

How much am I trading up by abandoning the low volume/high intensity philosophy and leaning more towards Polarized training. I can't do run speedwork it produces recurring overuse injury and that is why many on the forum have told me to walk away from it. Losing training time to injury in pursuit of speed on the run is not justified by whatever improvements I can get out of the speedwork, which based on the bulk of the feedback is not necessary to improve substantially on run times.

However I am almost unable to produce substantial injury, overuse or otherwise while on the bike. What is a practical guiding approach to building power and speed on the bike this far out from my A race.

I've been told each individual sport does not need to follow the same overriding training philosophy as the next. So I am definitely moving to a high volume moderate intensity run program, but I'm hesitant about doing the same for the bike.

My PR mile is 5:50 and my 10K is 41:something... should be in signature below. I am confident I can improve my ability to hold my run speed over distance with less intense training but think some high intensity type interval stuff will be necessary to move my power/speed on the bike up substantially.

Just curious if anyone has any thoughts on this, any positive personal experiences .. negative experiences with high intensity work on the bike ... TIA -- Scott *.*
Chasing dreams I've yet to have
-Swear I'm fast for a slow guy

FTP (20 min) 260W @ 165 lb
10K 41:46
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Re: High Volume/ Moderate Intensity 8 months out from LPIM [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude
Nov 18, 14 15:37
Post #2 of 8 (1569 views)
Is there a question in there? I skimmed for a question mark but didn't see one.

You should condense your post, it's high noise to signal ratio.
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: High Volume/ Moderate Intensity 8 months out from LPIM [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]
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Chri55
Nov 18, 14 19:46
Post #3 of 8 (1482 views)
Both desert dude and I have responded in your previous thread and there is a lot of good advice there. But in your last sentence you still seem to be perseverating on the bike training.
YOU NEED TO RUN MORE OFTEN. Five times a week and easier than you want to. Your goal at Lake Placid is unattainable unless you accept this. The run at Placid is tough and if you don't have the volume you will be walking a lot.

Hit the bike hard in the offseason. Intensity. Hammer on intervals and get that FTP up. But for god sakes, run easy and often, five or six times a week even if its only for 20 or 30 mins.
Or ignore this completely if you're in the M40-44 AG.

And based on your 20 min test, your FTP is not 260.
And I run faster than you and train the run easier and longer.

Good luck in LP. If you follow the advice from your other thread, you'll probably beat me.
A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance
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Re: High Volume/ Moderate Intensity 8 months out from LPIM [Chri55] [ In reply to ]
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dizzyingpaces
Nov 18, 14 20:39
Post #4 of 8 (1455 views)
Chri55 wrote:
Both desert dude and I have responded in your previous thread and there is a lot of good advice there. But in your last sentence you still seem to be perseverating on the bike training.
YOU NEED TO RUN MORE OFTEN. Five times a week and easier than you want to. Your goal at Lake Placid is unattainable unless you accept this. The run at Placid is tough and if you don't have the volume you will be walking a lot.

Hit the bike hard in the offseason. Intensity. Hammer on intervals and get that FTP up. But for god sakes, run easy and often, five or six times a week even if its only for 20 or 30 mins.
Or ignore this completely if you're in the M40-44 AG.

And based on your 20 min test, your FTP is not 260.
And I run faster than you and train the run easier and longer.

Good luck in LP. If you follow the advice from your other thread, you'll probably beat me.

Chri55 I am absolutely listening loud and clear, i'm just trying to sort, process and make all the great info everyone gave me into an executable plan. I also am not really sure how to hit five runs a week and still have the steam left to execute bike Intervals until my face falls off to get my power up. Are 60 mile hilly rides 3000ft climbing qualify as interval work, if I lull on the descends and flats and smash pedals through the hills,, thats an effective form of intervals right ??

I'm thinking about a schedule that looks something like this … let me know if it is laughable or logical… this is just broad strokes here so bear with me.

Monday - 1 hr easy swim/Day Off
Tues - 2-3 hour bike (intervals/hills) 1 hour easy run either off the bike or after a rest @ 8 min/mile (6 mile'ish run)
Wed - 1 Hour technical swim 1 hour easy tempo run @7:45 (7 miles)
Thursday - Bike Power Session on trainer or flat road course 1.5 hours (some kind of standard power interval set) 1 hr run off bike 8/8:!5 min mile (6 miles(
Friday- 1 Hour interval swim session 1 hr easy run 8:30 min/mile (6 miles)

Saturday - 3-4 hour long ride moderate intensity throughout, 4k of climbing/hillwork (high intensity up the hills) 1 hour run off the bike at 7:30 pacing
Sunday 2 hour easy endurance miles on bike, 2 hour long run off bike at 730/830 pacing


Now I literally just wrote this out and literally just ate a bunch of ambient just before writing it … but in all seriousness. .. does this make any sense ??? high volume and high intensity on bike, low intensity high volume on the run … whatever on the swim …

Please fire at will .
Chasing dreams I've yet to have
-Swear I'm fast for a slow guy

FTP (20 min) 260W @ 165 lb
10K 41:46
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Re: High Volume/ Moderate Intensity 8 months out from LPIM [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]
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Chri55
Nov 18, 14 20:55
Post #5 of 8 (1449 views)
I think you're starting to get it.
It's easy to get in a 20 or 30 min easy run to add to your volume. Those are the ones that end up making the difference. The benefit of added volume (no matter how easy) is huge.

You should really spent time on the BarryP threads.


http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

You're welcome.
A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance
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Re: High Volume/ Moderate Intensity 8 months out from LPIM [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]
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snaaijert
Nov 19, 14 0:58
Post #6 of 8 (1420 views)
I'm about the same run speed as you at the moment and for the long run i would def not guve myself the range from 7:30 to 8:30. Just keep it at 8:30 or even slower if you want the run to remain easy. 7:30 is near ur open mara pace. But for the rest the pacing seems ok, except i dont think you need to do tempo yet if you are doing barryp and youre 8 months out. Also, make sure that your 10k time in current, not your pr that you set 5 months ago after a run focus. Be honest to yourself, if youre not youre the only one that will be negatively affected.
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Re: High Volume/ Moderate Intensity 8 months out from LPIM [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]
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snackchair
Nov 19, 14 6:47
Post #7 of 8 (1330 views)
You don't need to run off the bike that much.

For imlp, from now until mid march, you should focus on running and swimming frequency. I do very few runs over 45 min, but I run everyday and do 2 hours on Sunday (and avg 50mpw). Over the winter, don't dick around on the trainer. Do 2 days of hard intervals - one w/ shorter 2-5 min intervals (accumulating 20 min of very hard effort), and one with longer 8-20 min intervals (accumulating ~40 min at threshold). On Saturday do 3.5-4 hours outside if there's no snow, and if there's snow, either skate ski or do trainer for 2-2.5 hours with some intervals to spice it up. On Sunday build up to a 2 hour long run. Once you've got that down, turn it into a progression run. Starting midmarch you can get more specific. The important thing over the winter is finding a repeatable schedule that you can stay consistent with. You don't need massive weeks or massive workouts, you just need consistent, frequent workouts.
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Re: High Volume/ Moderate Intensity 8 months out from LPIM [dizzyingpaces] [ In reply to ]
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JT_Dennen
Nov 19, 14 7:16
Post #8 of 8 (1304 views)
After reading this post as well as your last I figured I'd chime in here. My opinion is going to be somewhat different then what you might think or others might be saying.

I personally would not do the face melting bike intervals this far away from the race. All out 1,2,3,4 minuter intervals will blow you up. If you have to do something hard on the bike I would do stuff not harder then FTP and keep the intervals under 10 minutes. I use the same logic of why its not good to run super hard all the time.

You mentioned that you have read a few of Joe Friel's books. Save yourself the hassle of trying to put together a training plan yourself and just buy his book "Your Best Triathlon" and follow his plan. You'll get lots of hours worth of training, it will explain why its in that block, and as the race draws near you'll get plenty of hard work.

The reason I lean towards this is because I followed that super hard biking, tough swimming, easy running for a bit then adding a tempo into my plan later on. What happened to me? I was totally cooked before my two biggest races. A couple weeks after was told the training got screwed up so we moved on to salvage the season with some other good race times. Jumped back into the hard stuff a few weeks last I was totally fried. Overtrained to the point of my body just said "NO". It's been almost two years since I have been able to actually train. A few periods of time I have been able to start up but after a few weeks I'm cooked again, and that's with very little intensity. I wish I hadn't been training that hard on the bike for that long, and while most people might lose interest/get physical injury before that body gets that screwed up I guess I had enough mental toughness to just push through those warnings because I was paying for a coach at the time and I was so obsessive about hitting every single watt that was laid out for me. I should have been smart enough to pull back.

Anyways, hope that helps and good luck!
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