What are your thoughts on Flo's tire study and the relevance of their findings to your quest?

Scott

The Hed3 is a different story. If you ask the guys at Hed they will tell you that the perfect tire width for that wheel is about 16c. So a 20C tire like Tom tested is already sub-optimal. I'm talking about an 808 tubular, which with its toroidal profile should accommodate a 20C tire much better than a Hed3.


I don't think that's necessarily the case.

The claim (by people who know a lot more than I do) is that it does suck.

FWIW, I did use the 808 with the Crono tubular in my recent wind tunnel session. I managed to get to a respectable CdA with it. So it can't be a total loser. And it rolls a heck of a lot faster than any tire except the Corsa Speed clinchers.

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I would like to do more testing but I don't know if we will have time but I'll certainly think about it. I partially wanted to keep the wheels subject to tubeless compatible setups which the 404 NSW is not. The H3 could be a possibility. For my own possible testing I may be reaching out for a Trek Speed Concept seatpost. I want to test my own rigged rear bottle setup but also the XLAB Aero Pouch and it would be nice to have them both setup with identical saddles and then just swap out the post.

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To be honest, I have had further private discussions with a few ST members about the H3+. None of it has been very positive for the H3+. Part of the reason for the HED JET 6+ is the Black brake track. It is something special and could delay the need to go to discs. I also believe that there is some benefit, although not possible to quantify easily, in regards to being able to brake later with the Black, especially in the wet.

I would love to take a look at the data you have though.

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Did those people actually tunnel-or-track test it?

For kicks I just mounted a Corsa Speed on my Jet 9+. The 23C GP TT measured a whopping 27.1C on this rim. The 23C Corsa Speed is *only* 26.4. So aside from the slight lip, I would guess that it's a better match. I can't vouch for the SS, yet.

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I mean it was certainly helpful and I am extremely appreciative of the work they did. The reality is that we have new tires that roll really well, or at least in the SS, we can realistically suspect roll pretty well. That changes things a bit and the really impetus for the test.

In regards to the original test, one short fall is that they were testing on their rims and I would have like to see some others included. I think really the best test we have is Tom A's test. Granted the test used the Turbo but the fact that the HED JET 6+ and CLX 64 were beating the 90 is something notable. Then we have the fact that the Flo results were displayed for bike going 35km/h. I realize that not every test is going to meet every person but the faster you are going the more important the aero component becomes and the less important the rolling component is. The results would be different at say 40km/h or 42k/h.

If you strip the RR out of the FLO tests and just look at aero, they have the Attack performing worse at all angles than the GP4000s. HED has repeatedly said the Attack is the fastest tire on the HED JET+. Hard to say what is and what without testing ourselves. Regardless the one thing we didn't have then as well was the GP TT data. Although without testing the SS and TT, given similar construction width etc I think they could test very similar. Back then I was trying to get data for RR on the TT. We should be able to go back and find instances were I was pleading to test the tire. We then had Tom A and the other site test the TT and it rolled surprisingly well but then lacked the aero data.

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Don't mount the 25mm GP TT, you will be shocked...

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Fair enough. Any chance you could work a new Flo 60 w/ GP2k II into the test? We know that is Flo's optimal aero offering.

I'd like to see a shootout that includes the leading wheelsets with the optimal tire per the manufacturer's recommendation. That would be worth paying for.

Scott

Please let me know what you find out. I realize your first batch of Supersonics potentially had some issues which I hope are resolved by now. I will start mounting tires Sunday in prep. I want to make sure I get that Vittoria Corsa Speed mounted so I order a some metal tire levels. I also want to make sure my 23mm SS doesn't have the same lumpy issues. I do believe they will figure it out and it will be a top quality issue but likely some productions issues with the first batch.

I will of course measure the inflated width of the tire once pumped in the tunnel and I will also weigh each tire.

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I think the weight will tell you too. They should weigh about 150 grams, vs. about 185 for the TTs. If the Supersonics weigh 180 grams or more, you probably have the same defective ones that I got.

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Which version and width of the Crono?

Not so easy to find tubular that are <=20c any more (other than ones for the track), let alone 18c or 16c.

Also, are the first two measurements with butyl tubes? And 23c clinchers?

Thank you.

I have an extra carbon seatpost you can take. I'll measure it when I get home. Understood about the NSW but I'd just like to say this: if the aero/crr was within a watt of the Vittoria tubeless... the difference in the difficulty of fitting the tires would almost certainly make that penalty worth it. I don't personally know how hard it is to fit the Vittoria but I can say the TT is silly easy to fit.

I'll definitely consider it it. If I pick up a post I might as pick up the wheel as well. In my experience the Roval are really easy to fit tires and that is yet another reason it was selected for this test. I realize I put a lot of details in my post but definitely not everything I considered. From my perspective I realize the depth is not an apple-to-apples. I think I would personally prefer the 808NSW. I am not opposed to 90mm but late in Ironman when you are dehydrated and dizzy and the wind is howling I don't think 90mm is great decision.

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I have to say I have had so many Supersonics and have weighed nearly everyone. These older Supersonics are slightly different being narrow and the casing looks a little different. My average supersonic was probably 165g. Right now I have three that I just weighed, 2 brand new never used and are 164, 163, and 162 (slightly used). While my average TT has been about 180 but I have a TT that weighs 168 right now. Using these on Ironman you can imagine just how many I have went thru. I did have the odd Supersonic that was 156grams but none that were ever 150grams. I do wonder why such a wide delta. Given the large casing I have to presume that the NEW Supersonic is no heavier but I am not sure by how much that should be. What would the puncture breaker weigh?

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This is the Crono CS 20C. The one on my rear wheel actually measures 20.1; the one on the front only measures 19.4C. At least for my 808, you don't need anything narrower than this. That's the width of the brake track and the rim widens from there to 25.



All the clinchers were 23C, with 18-20c michelin latex tubes. I'm not sure why the Corsa Speed did so much better on my Zipp disk than it did on a standard rim. The wider rim I guess....


At this point, I'm going to use the 808 w/ crono CS tub for races with smoother roads and the Hed Jet 9+ w/Corsa Speed clincher for rougher road.

I'm betting that the 808 tubular is the best aerodynamically. Also with its smaller diameter I gain 0.75 cm drop on the front end with no loss of power. For the Jet 9+ clincher, the Corsa Speed rolls so much better, I doubt the aero cost will outweigh it -- particularly since it matches the rim width better than the TT does.

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I would be interested in the H3+ performance, but you would really need to test it on the track or Chung test to correctly account for "in the frame watts to spin". If my memory is correct, a lot of bikes with wide forks work very well with trispokes. The fact that Contador has ridden both the H3 on a Shiv and the Shimano TriSpoke on his SC makes me think that windtunnel testing of these wheels can be very misleading. Another interesting observation is the "negative watts to spin" for the TriSpoke reported by BTR. Chris Yu confirmed that it takes about 10 watts to spin a disc wheel and spoked wheels require even more., so if you are at -1 or -2 watts at 5 degrees with a TriSpoke you are going to need one hell of a poor tire choice before a spoked wheel is faster.

What's the brake track measurement on the HEDs?

I've mounted a 25 and 23 TT and don't remember them being that wide on zipps and the altos I had.

Besides the H3+ I've had no other experience w HED.

Inside or outside. Inside inside is what really matters for growing tires. They measure ~21mm ID.

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Wow. Think the Altos are 17.

[quote=jens]


This is the Crono CS 20C. The one on my rear wheel actually measures 20.1; the one on the front only measures 19.4C. At least for my 808, you don't need anything narrower than this. That's the width of the brake track and the rim widens from there to 25.[/quote]
That Crono 20c is a discontinued tire, I believe, and has been for years. The newer version rolls quite well (it won tests for me back when I was measuring Crr), but the narrowest option is a 22c. The newer version (Evo CS) is a little more durable and flat-resistant than the older one.

For anyone with a tubular front wheel who believes they want a narrow tire, it is a challenge to source anything that is not track-specific and <22c.



I've pondered this. not exactly sure how you conduct your testing (I imagine it is with a power meter on rollers) -- could it be that a disc's reduced power to spin is inherently factored into the calculation? I wondered this in my own testing for tires tested on discs and tri-spokes.

Only 5 other people care about this info? Cmon put in at least $25 if you think this is info that will drive any of your race day tire or wheel decisions.

FWIW, Xavier of Aerocoach UK claims that the Corsa Speed is "incredibly aero" on the Jet 6+. I don't know him or his testing methodology so I don't know how much weight that assertion holds. Also for what it's worth, if you look at Flo's tire data you'll notice an interesting anomaly where the 25mm Schwalbe One is actually more aerodynamic than the 23mm Schwalbe One. My guess is that the resulting slightly bulbous shape ends up being *just* right to create some sort of beneficial aerodynamic interaction (so it would be specific to that tire/wheel). My only point with that statement is we can hold out hope for reasonable aerodynamics from the Corsa Speed :)

Did they publish data at all? As for the Corsa Speed all I can say is there is no way anyone is changing that in the field. Hopefully it loosens up a bit now being on the rim. It was quite the job even cheating with the bead jack and I still blew one tube on the job.

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n=1. I just mounted two new Corsa Speed on my Jet+. And it was...OK. I got the bead over with my thumbs, and I'm not a tire-changing Chuck Norris. Much easier than my only other experience on a Flo disc where I had to buy a bead jack on Amazon to finish it.

I don't know if I just did a steller job of working the bead around the rim, using the center-channel in the wheel, etc. Or I got tires that were just manufactured loosely. Or Vittoria actually changed something up due to the issue. Could be any of those. Tubeless setup, so everything was all soaped up. Not sure if that was a factor.