Are Flashpoints just undimmpled 404s?

with a different hubs too.

My understanding is that FP 60's use the 2004 model year 404 molds and tooling. So same terrizoidal (sp?) shape but with Taiwaneese hubs upgraded with better Japanese bearings vs the Zipp in house hubs. The cost savings is due to manufacturing processes that reduce labor by reducing number of pieces of cf cloth they have to lay up. There is a good discussion of this from Josh at Zipp in this forum if you do a search.

I have a pair and they seem pretty nice. Only real downside I see is weight but for most courses not a huge issue.

I don't know about major advantages, but I will say that the carbon section on the Flashpoint is part of the rim structure, and the Jet is an aluminum rim with a carbon fairing bonded on. The Flashpoints ride extremely nice due to the damping of the structural carbon, even better I must say, than my 606 clinchers. I have not ridden the Jets, but would assume that they ride like a standard aluminum wheel.

I just put a set of FlashPoint 60's on last weekend and I absolutely love them. I've spoken to a lot of LBS's and did some research on ST and haven't found a shread of evidence that would convince me to spend the extra money.Plus the FP 60's match my bike much better. Just my opinion though...

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"Obsessed" A word the unmotivated use to describe the dedicated.

Are you sure that structural carbon would necessarily create a nicer ride? I mean, couldn't one argue that since the Jet spokes run from the hub to the aluminum rim, the overall spoke length is longer and there more distance over which the spoke could flex?

I vaguely remember Hed actually saying that as far as comfort was concerned, that the Jet was a more comfortable wheel than its cousin the Stinger for this reason.

A nicer ride than what, a Jet? I stated that I hadn't ridden a Jet wheel, but I have ridden Flashpoints extensively, and they are the smoothest riding wheel that I have ridden. The torroidal shape of the rim flexes on the Flashpoints, creating a softer ride. I have also ridden wheels with longer (normal length) spokes for many years, and there's nothing special to their ride qualities. I see no reason why a Jet would ride any smoother than a normal box section aluminum rimmed wheel. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

I haven't ridden Jets either. But I do own Stingers and I talked to Hed about both wheelsets before making my decision. It was a while back, but I seem to remember them saying that the Jet would be a more comfortable ride than the Stinger due to the longer spoke length. The Stinger also has a torroidal rim shape, so I'm guessing whatever you'd get from a flashpoint flex in the rim you might also get in the Stinger.

The "torroidal rim flex" that you talk of is the first I've ever heard of anything like that. I've read that it yields better air flow than traditional V-shaped rim designs, but I never heard anything about it being more comfortable because of the shape.

Softer ride? This seems to be one of those things that people think is the case, but can't really prove. I've ridden the entire Zipp line up at every distance and most of the Heds and I can't tell the difference in ride quality between any of them or even my Mavic Open Pro training wheels. They all seem the same. "Softer ride" just seems a bit of a reach to me. I am glad it appears that way to you though.

[reply]The Stinger also has a torroidal rim shape, so I'm guessing whatever you'd get from a flashpoint flex in the rim you might also get in the Stinger.
reply]

Not necessarily. The 606's I ride now aren't quite as smooth as the Flashpoints in my opinion, so I don't know where the HED wheels would fall in this issue.

Concerning the comfort issue, reference this page on Zipp's website:

http://www.zipp.com/VCLCViscoElasticConstrainedLayerControl/tabid/109/Default.aspx

[reply]Softer ride? This seems to be one of those things that people think is the case, but can't really prove. I've ridden the entire Zipp line up at every distance and most of the Heds and I can't tell the difference in ride quality between any of them or even my Mavic Open Pro training wheels. They all seem the same. "Softer ride" just seems a bit of a reach to me. I am glad it appears that way to you though.[/reply]

If you can't feel ride quality differences in bicycle wheels, then you have one less thing to be concerned with at time of purchase. Congratulations!

I have no idea if spoke theory holds true in practice. But the 606 wheelset with the 808 rear would certainly have shorter spoke lengths in the back and could potentially be why the Flashpoint 60 set might feel smoother than the 606 set? Just a thought... Of course, things like tire selection, air pressure, course condition are all going to have factors too.

As for the Zipp website, I didn't see anything about the torroidal shape itself contributing to ride quality? Only that their VCLC technology in the carbon laminate is supposed to reduce vibrations. Of course that website also claims that "champions everywhere ride Zipp". I'm sure that there are champions out there somewhere who don't. ;)

I agree! But seriously, there's a dramatic difference in feel between my H3, Jet60, Velocity Spartacus, Spinergy Tilium, etc. The carbon rims like the Tilium and H3 are definitely softer on the rough stuff but of course don't have quite the road feel either. The Jet60 is in between, mine being an older one with 24 spokes compared to the new ones. But I've put several thousand miles on the Jet60 and it's a tough wheel, no visible wobble at all. If you are planning on riding them outside of races then I'd recommend the Jets, they are just as strong as any Mavic Open Pro and just as aero (within reason) as the Flashpoints. Plus they were (still are?) a big chunk cheaper.

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Back to the original question. I would say *one* major difference would be the way the spokes are trued. You will have to take the tire off of the Jet to do this, but not with the FP. Not a big deal, but a difference. Otherwise I say it is a wash. I think price is the same for each and I am almost certain performance has to be as well. Just pick what ever looks best on your bike and ride them fast.

Just got a pair of Jet 60s off the classifieds here. A few observations:

- Nipples are near the hub, so no need to remove the tire to true. Although with clinchers this is not the biggest deal in the world.
- Tires make a big difference, as we all know. I haven't tried these with my usual Michelins, but I did with the Vredesteins that were on there. PSI was typical, and I haven't noticed a difference in the past between the feel of different clinchers on different wheels when they're at 115psi. Previous comparisons are between contis, PR2s, and Krylions on both Easton Vistas and Ascent IIs. The Jets are so freaking comfortable by comparison, it's not even funny. That said, it could be the tires - and if it is, I'm a convert.
- Good god are these fast.

I haven't ridden flashpoints, but I'm sold on the Heds. Maybe I'll try some carbon tubies at some point, but until that day, I'm a happy customer.

The carbon fairing on current model Hed Jet 60's (and 90's) is paper thin. Makes for a nice, light wheel, but it's so thin I'd be concerned about damage during transport, or even from a rock that gets "shot" off someone else's tire.

If I got Jets, I'd probably want an older (heavier) model with the thicker carbon.

Alpern,
should you ever need to true your wheels, you will have to take the tire off. The nipples at the hub end are loctited to the spokes, you'll just break stuff if you try to true there. -andy (at Hed)

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Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

Thanks for that. I'm not going to attempt to true my own wheels anyway.. I'm going to trust a shop to do that.

Why put nipples at the hub if they're loctited? I'm just trying to think through the construction and I can't figure out what benefit there is to putting the nipples there.

I think one thing that may impact perceived comfort is spoke pattern. The FP 60's are 2x laced front and back. Seems that would make your front wheel more comfy than a radial laced wheel but just speculation on my part.

The straight pull spokes (nipples at the hub end) let us use 6/4 ti spokes. The 6/4 is stronger than 3.25 but does not take kindly to being bent into a hook or having a head stamped into it - hence the nipples at the hub. -Andy

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Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

[reply]
As for the Zipp website, I didn't see anything about the torroidal shape itself contributing to ride quality? Only that their VCLC technology in the carbon laminate is supposed to reduce vibrations. Of course that website also claims that "champions everywhere ride Zipp". I'm sure that there are champions out there somewhere who don't. ;)[/reply]

Actually, I couldn't find anything on Zipp's website to back me up on this either. I just knew that I felt it. But Josh at Zipp has a good post in this thread on the issue, along with some other interesting stuff.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1321820;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I got a brand new pair of Jets (60 front and 90 rear) this spring and love them. They are my first tri wheels, but man are they fast. The first ride out it was like free speed on the flats as the bike just kept going! Smooth ride and seem like a real solid wheel. As for the paper thin fairing, I don't agree. Mine seem more than sturdy and have been transported in the back of my SUV to a couple of events and I wasn't in the least worried about them being damaged (within reason). As for a rock shooting off someone else's bike, it'd have to be one hell of a rock!

I was looking at the Flashpoints and other wheels, then called Hed and had a lengthy conversation with Tim on what I was training for and my size, speed etc...In the end he recommended the Jet 60/90 combo over the Stingers and that is what I went with and am glad I did. I was even gonna go with the custom decals but the stock ones matched my ride!

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