Nice narrative Mike and all very good points.

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Barry Dmitruk
2017: Florida 70.3 (done); Mont Tremblant 70.3 & Ironman

Sheet - I just thought ya' ran to hard...

One Konaexpress quad = 2xDev's waist size

if anyone has any doubt that people have the wrong gearing in lp (and ride the course too hard), then go out to the middle of the out-and-back along the river on the run and see all of the walking going on.

Carbonsport, thanks for reinforcing my point. If a 140 lbs guy with ~260W FTP needs a 34-25 to get up the steeper grades in LP at ~ 75-80 RPM without going hard, then the >6:30 guy really benefits from the triple.

There is no shame in using a triple. I used one on Alpe d'Huez to do my PB there. The lowest gear on the triple was 32x27. I went 58. With a 39x23 Lance went 37. Lance's FTP say ~500W while mine was ~260W (he was also ~10Kg heavier). If anything, I was overgeared, with a 1.18 gear ratio, vs Lance at 1.69...or we could look at the times and say that 58/37 = 1.56 and gearing is 1.69/1.18 = 1.43....so Lance went 1.56 times faster than me, using gearing that was only 1.43 time larger...in other words, he was doing higher RPMs than me all the way up.

So as you can see, the low end gearing is really based on your FTP and weight. The higher power to weight, the bigger gear you can use. I'd probably have needed a 32x29 to have the same relative gearing as Lance on Alpe d'Huez...think about this for a moment.....I'd basically need a 1:1 gear ratio to be geared the same as Lance to match my engine on Alpe d'Huez...now do you guys really think that suggesting a triple for a >6:30 rider is unreasonable?

Dev

what Dev said is right on
he learned me going reverse course at imlp
little is better for gearing

Dev-thanks for your kind reply,I'll introduce myself at Lake Placid.I probably will be riding something really different-A Titanflex srm compact (48/34) with a shimano 9 speed and an XTR LONG CAGE derailleur with a 12/34 cassette.This gearing might be good for you at MT Washington with it's final 23%grade!!! I probably will benefit from it at Placid.

Carbonsport, I used the 48/34 front chainring combo at LP last year. Unfortunately, I can't find a 48 tooth big ring for my Ritchey cranks! a 34 inner ring and 34 big cog would have been the right gearing to put me in proportion with the Lance Alpe d'Huez gearing for my FTP. 34-34 on Mt. Washington might be overgeared for me...I think I would need a big rear cog that is larger than the inner ring!!!

I've been watching this thread for a day or so and have been laughing my ass off at some of the responses. Apparently as a 35 year old my 53/39 with a 12/27 means that I am going to ride a 6:30 bike split. What a bunch of bullshit. I plan to ride a 5:40-6:00 controlled bike split to save my legs and then run my ass off for the marathon. What my "holy shit you're a wussy" gearing means is that I have all the gears I need and then some.

Jesus, I can totally see people reading this thread and then changing their gearing to have a higher opinion of themselves or so that seem more manly...Christ, what crap. The last two race divisions I have won, the leader into T2 didn't hang on during the run becuase he wasn't smart on the bike.

Sorry to rant, but sheesh, threads like this drive me nuts...

Bob

Maybe you are missing something. No one said in this thread that your gearing determines your bike split. Your bike split more or less is determined by your FTP power, pacing and your weight. Everyone needs gears that match their FTP power to weight ratio for the steepest parts. What is so difficult to understand about this...and yes, if you have a 39x27 small gear and plan to ride around 5:40 and perhaps have a FTP/weight ratio in the ~4W/Kg range, looks like your gearing is in the range that you will not cook your legs for the marathon.

By no means do your gears determine your bike split...in that case, I go out and get a 60-11 and then I magically go to 4:35 and beat Larsen's bike split :-)

Dev:

By no means and I trying to start anything or being a prick, but didn;t you post this:

"A few questions:

What is your FTP?
How long do you plan for the ride?
What is your history in the marathon?

This would be my range of answers:

• 5:30 or less 39x25
• 5:40 or less 39x27
• 6:00 or less 34x25
• >6:00 34x27
• >6:30 GET A TRIPLE"

You are intimating that your time and gearing are related....

And, FWIW, I am 5'10 and wigh 200lbs. I could go out and hammer the hell out of the bike course and post a 5:30-5:40 or so. But, I won't. Insted I'll put my ego in check and hold back, using easier gearing so that I have a lot left for the run.

And, if people think the "steepest" parts of the LP course are that steep, they need to reconsider. The worst grade is about 8% and that is on the Bears and Cherry's I believe. What makes people think the course is steep is their lack of gearing.

IMHO FTP and all that can go out the window for me in my plan. As I said, my goal is to ride the bike nowhere near the edge of my potential so that I can rip the run. Many people forget the bike sets up the run and they should plan accordingly.

Bob
Bob

I don't know anything about the LP course, and I know next-to-nothing about triathlon--but I wouldn't go putting a triple on for one race unless I were riding it a lot before the event. Changing Q-factor right before a 100+ mile ride (after which you have to run) seems like a really bad idea to me--and most triples are quite a bit wider.

If a 33-28 isn't low enough, I'd set the shifter to friction, and put a long cage MTB derailleur on there and go with a 33 up front and an 11-34 mtb cassette in the back. This is cheaper, will shift better, and won't mess with the q-factor of the crank. If a 25 inch gear is still too big, I'd get off and push--it would probably be faster.

now do you guys really think that suggesting a triple for a >6:30 rider is unreasonable?
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Dev,

I didn't mean to suggest that what you are saying is unreasonable. I was surprised to hear you say that more than half the field should be on a triple since I doubt more that 10% will be. By your standards, I'm going to be overgeared. I'm riding a 39 x 27 as my easiest gear and will try to pace myself for a 6:30 bike split (6:00 would be nirvana!). At this point I'm just going to have to see how it goes as I am not going to re-gear my bike this close to the race (all my longest and steepest rides were done on this gearing). I hope I make it (for my own sake, not to prove anything to you). Hopefully we'll meet in LP (ST get together).

Thanks for your comments, you've giving me something else to worry about :-)

please post after the race what your bike split and, more importantly, your run split are. arrogant 200lb guys who don't respect the bike course usually have a rude awakening when they are walking into town on loop 1 of the run.

Steel -

I'll likely get flamed for this, as I did when I chimed in about the IMCDA course and asked a similar question. An answer maybe from a real world AGer.

I'm not an AG contender but do OK for myself, given I've only been doing tris for 3 years. I understand that IMLP is hillier than IMCDA as far as long sustained hills, but what I used at CDA was a 54/42 and 11-23 and I never got past the 42-19. But then again, I mash hills versus spin. I went 5:31, and then 3:44 in the marathon. Never sacrificed anypart of my run on teh bike by mashing. My only other tri was Florida in 2006 where I went 5:36 on the bike and 4:12 on the marathon. I was also 20 pounds heavier then!

I don't train with power, I use HR and perceived exertion. I know, old school, and totally uncool, but it took 38 minutes off the total time in 18 months, and I finished with enough left over to run 30 minutes on Monday - should have pushed harder on both the bike and run...lesson learned. My strength is the bike, and I can hang with most if its only a TT, but I back off in the triathlon. Triathlons are different.

Point here is know thyself and know thy goals. If you're not a podium finisher, (and many or most who've added comments actually are and I'd respect them if you're in that class - I'm not in their league) then you can likely just go with what has worked for you in training. If you spin a higher cadence, you'll need lighter gears. If you EVER get to a 39-23 on ANY hill, get smaller gears - you always want that extra gear, and if you don't climb on a regular basis, you'll probably need it. I had literally no problem wth my gearing at CDA, and didn't go nearly hard enough on the bike. I even got heckled for standing on the short rollers (and by more than a few onthe first 'long' climb out of Hayden Lake). But again, I did fine, and dropped everyone on every hill (then promptly get passed going downhill again - maybe I'm doing it all wrong - but I consider 138th fastest on the bike to be just fine). But of note is that I rarely ever use the 19, and cannot recall the last time I was ever in the 23; they are just there in case.

The other thing is whatever you plan to use, get it now and use it before you need it...you have less than a month.

My $.02 if its worth anything.

K

I don't know where you get "arrogant" out of my statements? I said, and I think you can read, that I respected the course enough not to hammer it and blow up. If I wanted to, I could hammer, but chose not to in order to save it for the run. How you get arrogant out of that is beyond me, but that's Slowtwitch for you....

And for what it is worth, I did two easy loops of the bike course two weeks ago in 6:17 and then ran 5.4 miles at 7:20 pace. The next day, after four days of training I ran the LP 1/2 marathon (On the damn run course) in 1:40.

So, in short, I rspect the hell out of the bike course, but respect the run course more and will not ride the bike as hard as possible.

making comments like you are going to "run my ass off" and "rip the run" don't exactly come across as modest. again, post your bike and run splits on this thread after the race. i don't know too many 200lb guys with your attitude who have not blown up on the run.

Will you be posting yours? Hell, do you even race or are you a peanut gallery guy?

And, if you think "run my ass off" and "rip the run" are boasting, pal you need to get out more...

Bob

i'm out for the year coming off hip surgery. i'll post next year and it won't be preceded with comments about how much i am going to rip the run despite weighing 200lb and jogging a 1:40 half. i've done lp 3x and i have the utmost respect for those little ant hills you think are the big hills on the course. going up the hill in town not once but twice on the run is a killer even for the swiftest of us.

C'mon, do you really, honestly think there are killer hills on the bike course? No, there aren't. I ride worse hills in training, but when you follow the IMLP hills with a marathon someone going to hard pays a very serious price. I know the bike course and I respect it, so don't put words in my mouth and read the other obvious bullshit boasting of others.

See ya next year sport.

Bob

C'mon, do you really, honestly think there are killer hills on the bike course?

No, there is no single killer hill on the course. However, IMLP is 6800 ft of cumulative vertical. It does not matter how you cut it. That's cumulative vertical and anyone who knows anything about cycling knows that cumulative vertical creeps up on ya and at the end makes short hills feel like the summit of Mont Venoux. In fact, over IMLP, you will be doing more climbing than riding Mont Ventoux...then you have to back it up with doing a marathon that is harder than Boston.

If you don't believe in the cumulative vertical, ride the coarse the opposite way UP KEENE...there is your answer. You have to carry 225 lbs of bike, rider, helmet, bottles and shoes up 6800 ft over the day. There is no cheating gravity....look at what Murphy's Law said, "Who Turned UP the Gravity on Bike Loop 2".

I hope you have a great race. It sounds like you have respect for the course, but I would still really recommend that you swap out the 53/39 for a 50/34 compact...its barely a $200 upgrade for this course, that will save you for the marathon. After all the $$$$$ spent preparing for the race, is $200 really that much of an insurance policy....look at it this way, even if you don't use all the gear, your 50 tooth and 34 tooth will be lighter than your 53 and 39 (OK, we are splitting hairs....but what the heck...worth a try...). Look at it this way....I'm 66% of your weight, yet my gearing is 6% easier.

Here is another data point. Mike Lavery road 5:15 last year...this year hopes to ride 5:10...gearing 39x25....do you really think that your gearing that is 4% easier than Lavery is matched to your performance target/capability?

Dev

absolutely not but if you are looking at the course that way then you just don't get it. dev's analysis of the course is spot on. it's not whether there are steep hills -- it's the total amount of climbing, which is a lot. because there isn't a single steep hill, the course teases you to go faster than you should (particularly on the first loop). many a people blow their entire race hammering the first hill out of town. it happens every year.

i don't wish anyone ill but your arrogance about gearing and running ability (i mean how does a 5:18 marathoner come on here and boast about how fast he is going to run off the bike at lp???), combined with your weight, sure seems to predict a future walk-a-thon on the run. i'd like to see you prove me wrong.

WTF? You don't know me or know anything about me, but you go and cherry pick stuff off of my blog to make me look bad. Are you that big of a freaking jackass or that stupid? Shit, do you work for the Bush Adminsitration in WMD propoganda too?

And, yep, I ran a 5:18 marathon this Janaury at Disney...with the flu...taking in no nutrition at all and puking 8 times during the race...Lost 18 lbs during the race too...You probably would have quit, but I didn't. As Rutger Beke said "What would it say to the people in the back if I quit when I wasn't having a good day?"

FWIW and not that it matters to you, but my marathon best is a 3:30 at Philly with one torn calf. I'm lighter and faster now, but I am sure that doesn't matter to you all knowing one...

You truly are a class act sport.

Bob

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I am going to ride my fixie on race day.