Where is she located? She really needs to see a qualified fitter. Please don't blame Guru as they are just a tool. The fitter is the one that has to decide what is best for the customer BASED off their feedback.

Post a video of her riding on the trainer (side view, level with the top tube).

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"Please don't blame Guru as they are just a tool."

thank you.

interbike asked me to head up its fit symposium, which we conducted in las vegas during the interbike show. my goal for this symposium was not to teach bike fit, rather to express to dealers:

1. how today's modern dynamic fit schools and systems are alike, how they differ, and how they differ historically from methods of fitting starting with the publication of the C.O.N.I. Manual in 1972.

2. what tools are available to help a fitter; what is the state of the industry in fit bikes, the metrics they output, how they adjust, as well as the available motion capture systems.

3. software that aids the fitter in moving from fit coordinates to complete bike solutions.

fitters have to make these choices:

A. what school to go to, and to send your employees to;

B. what fit bike to buy, if any;

C. what motion capture system to buy and rely on, if any.

if you invest in a GURU system you're investing in the most modern, capable, useful fit bike made today. you may choose to pair this with a motion capture system. or not. you have available to you software with the GURU and you can rely entirely on this or you can also rely on software and calculators that basically work the same way, but are available outside the GURU hardware and software.

education, both in-person and online, is available if you bring a GURU system into your store.

but it's like the latest, greatest MRI or pet scan or other imaging machine. if you're not a properly trained and experienced radiologist, the imaging machine isn't going to be the doctor. only the doctor can be the doctor. you can blame the company making the imaging tool, that the radiologist wasn't sufficiently trained, but you can't make the doctor be smart and experienced. you can give him everything, but in the end it's like giving you all the latest, greatest wetsuit and bike: you have the tools, if you don't win, is it the fault of the tool?

finally, to those fitters who say, "it's the fitter not the tool," would you go to a radiologist who says, "it's the radiologist not the tool."? me, i want the radiologist AND i want the tool.

the fitter who says it's the fitter not the tool is a tool. just, the GURU is not the only top-grade fit tool GURU, Purely Custom, Retul, Shimano, Exit Cycling all make proper fit bikes and any really good fitter could fit using any of these fit bikes. i seriously question the capability of any fitter who does not have any of these fit bikes in his studio. this isn't to say he isn't a good fitter, rather that he's a good fitter who hasn't (yet) invested in the most important (and in my opinion mandatory) tool all professional fitters require.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I couldn't agree more but I would personally add to that statement: someone who has knowledge of aerodynamics.

I want the radiologist, tool, AND aerodynamics. These three are pretty hard to come by on the local scene. I'm personally struggling to find someone that has all three.

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Thanks - but the above does not assist my friend.

Ok - getting back on track to my original question; 'What should she do now?' See another LBS/fit specialist/ LBS competitor? We're in the DMV area. It's a Specialized Amira.

-Thanks.

i agree theoretically, but this takes us into the weeds of fitting. in our fit symposium i asked todd carver, one of our key presenters, to stress the concept of "drivers."

to this point, my question is this: to what degree are aerodynamics a driver of position? now, you might argue that it's a primary driver. but is this how people actually get positioned? find and establish their fit coordinates?

i would argue that aerodynamics are a secondary driver of fit, for two reasons. first, riders gravitate right away from what's aerodynamic to what seems comfortable and powerful, especially if we're talking long course triathletes, and every pro triathlete interested in no-draft triathlon is now a long-courser by financial necessity. i remember in 1990 steve hed and john cobb had ken glah in the wind tunnel, i was observing, they got his drag at 30mph down from 7lb to 4.3lb. that lasted about 2 weeks.

second, unless you have a way to test aerodynamics during the fit how are you going to drive the fit using aerodynamics as the metric? yes, you can count pixels and establish frontal area. that's about it.

you can VERIFY a fit aerodynamically via a wind tunnel or alphamantis-type methodology so, you trade the wind tunnel for a velodrome). or you can use the poor man's wind tunnel or velodrome: field trials or a roll-down test. just, there are practical considerations.

the other way is just for a fitter to kind of know what, in general, seems to test well. hands where, angled where, elbows where, head doing what while you're riding. but you can't test it. you just kind of use general principles and hope their applicable to the rider getting fit.

i find that most riders choose a steep angle - hips forward - if you ask them how they prefer to ride (RPE and comfort at a given resistance). along with that they'll generally choose a reasonably low front end, again because it feels better rather than because they think it'll be more aero. this means, practically, the major aerodynamic themes take care of themselves, because what feels good usually is pretty aero.

circling back, tho, if you want aero do be a driver of fit you have to establish a protocol where saddle fore/aft, cockpit distance, handlebar elevation, forearm tilt, is established using input derived from something dynamically measuring the drag of the rider as you make these changes aboard a bike while he's riding. otherwise i think you have to acknowledge the limitations - not the absence of, but the limitations - of aerodynamics as a driver of fit.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"What should she do now? See another LBS/fit specialist/ LBS competitor? We're in the DMV area. It's a Specialized Amira."

i've become an advocate of taking a video of the finished position. we're going to amend our fitter's database we keep here on slowtwitch to add the uploading of videos of riders, kind of like a video portfolio of fits, so that you all can see what the fitter considers positions you all should see. i think the next step is to get a video of her position. if necessary, go back to the GURU fitter, reestablish the position on the fit bike (it's saved, a push of the button would reestablish her fit coordinates), take a video from the side, slap it up here on slowtwitch. let's see what we're dealing with.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yes go see someone else. But do your research first. Talk to other cyclists and ask who they have seen and their experiences. What did they like? What didn't they like? Interview various fitters. Ask them questions about their fitting process. I would also suggest for her to become more educated in general bike fitting. There's a lot of information on this website and a lot of others to help you. If you are more educated, you will be able to tell which fitters know their stuff and which don't.

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Yeah I'm not looking for an aerodynamic driven fit and more of a secondary drive like you said.


This is exactly what I have in mind. Someone who has some knowledge of aerodynamics (whether that's first hand experience or just keeping up on the latest trends and aero testing). I'm amazed at the amount of people (including pros) that ride with their arms level or worse: below their elbows. It just makes me question how many fitters out their are paying attention to all the latest aero data that's been circling around in the past year or two.

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That's a little harsh. They're not that bad.