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For those who say Testosterone makes no sense
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Seems like testosterone is used by cyclists for big tours.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul14news3

Ullrich's alleged doping plan

The Suddeutsche Zeitung has published what it claims was Jan Ullrich's doping plan for the first week of the Tour de France 2005, based on information from Operacion Puerto. For the first seven days of the Tour, Dr. Fuentes prepared him a series of hormones, insulin, cortisone, testosterone and blood transfusions, the newspaper alleged. It claimed that there was a "Roadbook" for the Tour 2005, which investigators link to Ullrich.

On the first day, according to the SZ, the hormone HZ was listed, the second day insulin I-3, the hormone TGN and cortisone, the third day TGN and PCH (a testosterone shot), on the fourth day HMG, a hormone mixture, a "rest day" on the fifth day, the sixth day insulin I-3, and on the last day, the re-infusion of his own blood, as well as insulin I-3 and vitamin E.

The newspaper also notes that it is not clear who might have helped Ullrich with possible transfusions, and notes that experts say that Pevenage or Ullrich himself might have managed it. There is no indication that the medical or support personnel of the team were involved, according to the SZ.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Wolfwood] [ In reply to ]
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Eeewww... that makes my skin crawl. It's like Frankenstein or something. I'd never be able to dope unless the drugs came in chewable, gummy fruit-flavored form.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Wolfwood] [ In reply to ]
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There's a difference between people using something and proof that something works.


I was hoping you were going to point us to a double blind study with trained endurance athletes and testosterone and a placebo.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [austin79] [ In reply to ]
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I'm kind of suprised too. It goes way beyond, I feel tired give me something. It's a complete program of drugs taken sequentially. It's a lot more complicated than I thought.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [SWoo] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]There's a difference between people using something and proof that something works.


I was hoping you were going to point us to a double blind study with trained endurance athletes and testosterone and a placebo.[/reply]

Where are you going to find athletes to take illegal PEDs for a public study?
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Wolfwood] [ In reply to ]
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Recreational athletes who don't compete - your apparent standard of proof for why testosterone makes sense is not low - it's almost nonexistent - strong endurance people use it so it must work.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Wolfwood] [ In reply to ]
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I remember it being done for EPO a few years ago. The athletes involved agreed not to compete during the trial though.

In Reply To:
Where are you going to find athletes to take illegal PEDs for a public study?
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Wolfwood] [ In reply to ]
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search pubmed and you'll see the results
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Jason D] [ In reply to ]
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http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

did people forget this article:
start with HGH, then testosterone, then EPO, the steriods etc. you have to do it such that each drug/system support the other and so on. kind of like training, aerobic support for lactic work, lactic work to support anaerobic work, muscular support for all etc ...

here's another comprehensive scheme allegedly used by Tyler Hamilton, also from the recent Spanish raid (note that you can't test positive if your doc is sufficiently competent, only raids can uncover such comprehensive schemes):
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1420596&page=0
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Jason D] [ In reply to ]
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"search pubmed and you'll see the results"

No luck... search for what exactly?
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Wolfwood] [ In reply to ]
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I think that "insulin I-3" means IGF3, aka "insulin-like growth factor 3." Normally, release of HGH triggers release of IGF-3, which in turn mediates most of the performance-enhancing effects normally associated with HGH.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [SWoo] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah but it isn't what really works according to science ... it's what the athlete thinks might work.

The Floyd thing didn't make sense to me at first either, but when you consider how desparate he must have been after Stage 16, he really had nothing to lose. once faced with being off the podium in his last Tour before hip replacement and potential retirement. Looking back at it now, I guess I shouldn't have been that surprised.

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"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Wolfwood] [ In reply to ]
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All of the stuff that has happened in 2006 TDF just makes me really appreciate what wizards Lance's drs. must have been.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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LAnce had the inside scoop on what was going to be happening in the anti-doping world and retired at the right time...

Oh wait, did I really say that?? I mean... Lance was clean.

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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Strider124] [ In reply to ]
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What struck me as odd during one of Floyd's press conferences was when he made the statement:

"I am not (awkward pause) in any doping program"

It sounded to me like he was trying to convince himself of his innocence by word selection. Maybe he wasn't in a "program" as described above, and only used a patch for recovery that night, and therefore by contrast felt innocent of the charge as he rephrased it.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [SWoo] [ In reply to ]
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Whether there is actual scientific proof that it works is irrelevant. Whether pro cyclists use it in their doping program is extremely relevant. That's enough to establish motive.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [Wolfwood] [ In reply to ]
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I'm certainly no expert but from what I've heard, one dose of testosterone won't do much. it must be part of more long term treatment. Floyd apparently tested negative two days prior to stage 17.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [austin79] [ In reply to ]
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Flintstones chewable testosterone pills?


-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [squid] [ In reply to ]
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You can be taking it and still test negative. Assuming he did dope, they just screwed up the dosage or masking that day.

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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [squid] [ In reply to ]
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Presumably you would be taking exogenous testosterone AND exogenous epitestosterone at the same time to keep T/E ratio correct (<4/1). If there was a misapplication of either substance voila, a positive test on one day. I guess it could be remedied the next day by balancing out with either T or E to get the ratio back to 4/1.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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it was late - the study I found was subjects who took EPO not testosterone - Wolfwood was wondering where you'd find people to take PEDs for a study - I think it would be pretty easy to find people for a 4 week study. Just throw $s at them.

7% increase in V02 max taking epo 3 times/week for 4 weeks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...;itool=pubmed_docsum

If there are not studies on the recovery effects of testosterone, there probably will be soon give the Floyd debacle. I can't imagine it has anywhere near the same net effecf of EPO.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [SWoo] [ In reply to ]
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Do a little research. Chronic stress lowers testosterone levels. I'd consider almost year-round racing and hard 3-week tours to fit the definition of "chronic stress." Furthermore, why would the use of any performance enhancing substance be banned if it didn't actually enhance performance in some way?
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [steveperx] [ In reply to ]
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" Flintstones chewable testosterone pills?"


That's why the called 'em FlintSTONES!!!!
What??? Like you have shame? Spandex wearers!!!

j

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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [jhendric] [ In reply to ]
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I did do a little research and did not find a match for testosterone, endurance and placebo. Have any of you? I thought that was the point of the origin of this thread.

Women seem to do pretty well in endurance events and three week tours in spite of the UCI dumbing down the distances and a bit lower level of testosterone...

They ban marijuana and they don't ban caffeine. If you are using the list of banned substances as some sort of argument, you need a better argument - i.e. double blind study, and there are such studies for caffeine and endurance.
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Re: For those who say Testosterone makes no sense [SWoo] [ In reply to ]
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Part of the reason for making certain PED's illegal is that they're often used for purposes other than for which they were originally designed and tested. Just because there aren't any published, double-blind studies doesn't necessarily mean that a drug has no effect - simply that it hasn't been proven in a published, double-blind study (because one's not been done).
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