Did you go to the town hall?

I'm convinced he's innocent - - I was shocked that the lab uses such an old piece of equipment that the software is no longer supported. That was one of a few details I had been unaware of before attending the town hall

I can only imagine the legal expenses are huge and ongoing - - so no, I don't think it is odd that he needs to fund raise to defend himself and also take the opportunity to educate people about what is going on. The information sharing and the fact that he is the first professional athlete to opt for an open hearing further convinces me that he is innocent.

I hope he does great at Leadville. I'm still a fan.

yeah, and that software has put all that ugly stuff in his blood. no wait, it's natural, I forgot! you need a lot of money,when you change your defence strategy all the time *lol*

Try looking at this and then see if you think he is innocent or guilty.

http://www.floydfairnessfund.org/...Denfense%20Slide.pdf


IMO the French labs have just got it in for the Americans. If floyd wins his case (and I think he will) then it will be interesting to see the subsequent liability implications on the French Lab.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

This subject is like talking politics and religion, everybody has there opinion and will battle it out with anybody who is not of the same mind set as them. I believe in innocent untill proven quilty and unfortunatly the majority of the cycling community does not. This lab in question has had over 12 test overtuned for many reasons in the past 3 years alot of it was breaking of protocol. The problem is that the testing is not the best but the one that WADA and the UCI bought into and is sticking by it. I wish there was a lemon law for these types of test.

As a retired competitive cyclist I am glad to no longer have to put my trust in a system where my sample could have been miss handled and then had a cloud of doubt placed over me. Alot of cycist fear this. I do not think that the French lab or any other labs are out to get any one rider or nationality, its just that thier testing protocols are flawed and always have been but they are standing by them all the way as this ship sinks.

Again I will what for the final verdict on Landis, it is funny how a rider can have a dominate year, be tested at every one of the races that he won multiple times, including 2 test (negative) before his positive test then one test (negative) after the positive test and so many people think that the positive test can not be wrong. I would probably believe that as well if there had not been so many documented cases of positive test being wrong.

I'm not sure either way, but I am convinced that UCI/WADA etc know he may be barking up the ight tree, an know his funds are running low, and are delaying on purpose.

On the other hand, what about pro bono? (no the guy from U2)

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http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/

it is funny how a rider can have a dominate year, be tested at every one of the races that he won multiple times, including 2 test (negative) before his positive test then one test (negative) after the positive test and so many people think that the positive test can not be wrong.

See Ben Johnson prior to 1984 - 1988 as a good example of how someone can have a dominant few years years, be tested at every one of the races that he won multiple times, and was on drugs.

And this was almost 20 years ago so to think it could not happen again is naive.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Well in America you are innocent until proven Guilty. But to be proven guilty the process has to be done by following all the rules. If the correct process is not followed, machines not maintained, chain of possession not documented ect... the excused is found innocent.

And it really seems to me that not only was/is the process broken it has been pointed out numerous times in the past, potentially guilty parties have been released because the process was not followed, and they have yet to fix it. The only thing I know for sure is the authorities in this case are incompetent and because of that the truth about cyclist will continue to have doubts cast on it, until they fix and follow their own procedures.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I'm not convinced of his guilt or innocence, but have you ever been to a hospital or medical research center? We have equipment running on NT4 and Digital unix - works perfectly, the same as when it was bought.

I've heard of one lab that recently (6 months ago) retired their EM that was running a pdp something (11?)...

[reply]
Well in America you are innocent until proven . [/reply]

I'm guessing you aren't a lawyer as I know a lot of them that would get a good chuckle from that line. It is a nice theory though.

As for Landis, most people would ask for free money if they knew they would get it.

Yes the practical implementation of this is flawed but the theory does enforce the proper following of procedures. Ask your Lawyer friends thats the easiest way to win the case, get it thrown out for lack of proper procedure, chain of evidence, maranda rights or other "technicalities"

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

The "French" those little boogers. They are jealous that he's over 5'

Fran--swaaaaaaaa what ya think????????????

[reply]
[reply]
Yes the practical implementation of this is flawed but the theory does enforce the proper following of procedures. Ask your Lawyer friends thats the easiest way to win the case, get it thrown out for lack of proper procedure, chain of evidence, maranda rights or other "technicalities" [/reply]

They are all corporate lawyers (I've been a technical consultant for them) and the last thing they want to do is go to trial if it is a case brought by a civilian. Settle settle settle. Remember Erin Brockovich -- no trial. But going to trial is also the last thing a judge wants to do and judges will do things to make you question the innocence before guilt idea in order to force a settlement.

[reply]yeah, and that software has put all that ugly stuff in his blood. no wait, it's natural, I forgot! you need a lot of money,when you change your defence strategy all the time *lol*[/reply]

no wait, it's Urine, you forgot!

Great to see you're paying attention.
Do you moonlight at the WADA lab? *ROTFL*

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Lewis

Innocent until proven guilty only applies to criminal proceedings. Outside of the criminal court, other thresholds of guilt and innocence can and do exist.

Of course that is true. However, does not change the fact the process must be above reproach.

That is where most people argue on this case, how can we determine his guilt or innocence if they did not follow their own procedure for determining it.

What would people say if after the day of racing , the officials announced, we decided todays stage will not be included in the overall results because the sky was blue today.

There are rules and procedures for a reason and if they cant bother to follow them, then there results should be thrown out.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

What would people say if after the day of racing , the officials announced, we decided todays stage will not be included in the overall results because the sky was blue today.

Umm, you do realize we are talking about professional bike racing right? Have you ever read the history of drug use in the sport?

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__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

It already happened in the Tour of California.

Yes, I am aware of the history.

It only goes to strengthen my argument. If you know you have a problem, you need IRONCLAD rules and procedures that everyone agrees to play under. Any infraction and thats it. The Problem is they did not follow there own procedures so they threw the monkey wrench in the system. If they would have followed proper chain of custody and testing procedures we would not be having this debate.

They have had to throw out something like 12 other positive results in the past year or so for not following there own procedures, what is there problem. Seems pretty simple, to me, figure out why your people can not/ are not following the protocols and fix it then go after the cheaters.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Though, Not exactly, there was a major crash, the race was in effect frozen at that point. This happens frequently and I don't know how the rules are specifically written for that race, but some precedence has been set.

But it does make my point lots of people were upset that they did it and since I asked what would people say.. I am sure you can find lots of those comments. People were not happy with it and argued who really should have won the stage.

So thanks for making my point.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I wasn't making any point, just correcting you on a factual error. Innocent until proven guilty is a term often misused like freedom of speech. Neither exists outside of a set of particular parameters as defined by the law.

Well, I was The point being when a race or whatever does not follow the rules/procedures it defines the entire thing becomes a mess, and who the winner / loser / legal participant / cheaters are becomes a mess.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Never said that it could not happen, and the Ben Johnson thing was because he was tested for a new steroid first time tested and failed was not the same as the other tests. Landis had the same test done every time nothing new except the way the sample was handled.

Stanazanol was not a new steroid in 1988. I don't recall if new tests were being used at the Seoul Olympics though. However I doubt any new testing would have been needed to detect Stanazanol.

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Lewis