Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Five years from now....The Future of Bike design
Quote | Reply
Thanks to the brilliant minds at the UCI, we have been safe from any major advancement in bicycle design for several years now. Instead of re-invneting the bike, manufacturers have stooped (or climbed) to the level of "games" and "Gimmicks." example, "Our head tube is ten percent more aerodynamic than say, company B. Company C, "our wheel cut-out is faster than company d," ect.... The problem is then, other companies either, have to come up with something better, or just downplay the new design.

Even tube shapes have started to all look the same. A double-triangle frame is a double triangle frame. There really aren't many more possible configurations to try (and even fewer that have any redeeming qualities what so ever. That will change. Why? Becasue it has to. Bike companies have squeezed the UCI envelope for all it's worth, and because of it, all of their bikes are starting to look the same. Don't believe me? Take a glance at BMC, Time, Look, and Pinarello. To a dedicated (addict) bicycle pornographer, you can see the suttle differences, but to the average $5000 dropping-on-a-new-ride-to-be-cool crowd, they can't tell the difference. You have major discusions about whether the Trek TTX is any more aero than the Litespeed Blade, if Cannondales are really any better than Giants, ect.... The "public" has to have something major to grasp on to. A Cervelo wheel cut-out, a Lance Armstrong ripping the competition apart, a Colnago paint job. They need soemthing physical that stands out, not just a "Product X is ten seconds faster over a forty k, than Product G." Thats to easy to debate. They need something they can point to, and say, "see you bike doesn't have an aero chainstay. Doesn't matter if it works, it's gotta look like it really works.

So, what's next? I have no idea. What's gonna happen in several years? This would be my guess:



"Tube Bumps" Come up with a better name if you want, but I think these will find there way on to bike frames.

Zipp came out with the infamous "dimple disc." Is it any faster? Not much, but boy does it look cool. It looks like it should work; that's what's important.

Now I can describe why I think these "bumps" will help aerodynamics, but you guys will just put on your "aerodynamic tophats" and explain principles to me. They aren't principles you've tested, or have experience with, they've just been told to you by someone. Those principles don't quite line up with this new idea, so this new idea won't work. I think your wrong, but mostly, that's why I stated that this will probably hit in five years. The industries not quite ready for this.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You know what? I remember in one of the more recent winter olympics that the Long-course Speed skaters were using "riblets" attached to their legs/arms/head to try to reduce aero-drag. Try googling it. Why hasn't that found it's way into cycling?

__________________________________________________
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hey Gopha,

The future might be closer than we think. Doesn't the Kuota K Factor have dimples on it's rear triangle? Thought I read that somewhere...

The Other TD
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
aw hell, why not take a sheet of titanium, then wrap it in carbon, then make a bike triangle out of it... that would make one skinny bicycle. lol

__________________________________________________
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The dimple concept is not new. It has been lifted from the golf ball and has alot to do with turbulent vs. laminar flow and the pressures that each generate. I'm not sure exactly how the science works, but turbulent flow creates less pressure than laminar flow. This idea works its way into some funny places like car aerodynamics. Look at the 'vortex generators' on the rear roof of the new Mitsu Evo VIII and some dragsters. Some of the under bellies of race cars employ this as well. It works in water too - just wat for the new 'reverse goose bump' wetsuit to hit the shelves for $1,000 (wait, maybe I should come out with that - You all heard it here first! I want my cut if I see this at Kona 06!) I think that the real trick is getting the ratio right without creating drag.

Smooth is so over!

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [GasMunky] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Like golf balls?
I am watching the US Open.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [bigsky17] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I was at a local "Swim" equipment shop and Speedo already has some products on the shelves that deploy this technology. If you look at the front, in the chest area, there are a series of bumps on the fabric. In addition, I think, TYR has done something similar with a wire line on some of their swim equipment.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [txtri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't need that high-tech swim suit. The acne pocks on my chest maintain turbulent flow.




kidding. please. just a joke.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
After looking at some of the research coming out of Ball State's Human Performance Lab and the Biomechanics Department I think the next big revolution will be in finding new ways to design bikes that will be based more on recruiting some of the muscles in the legs and back that we don't traditionally use as much. The UCI will probably keep the traditional setup, but there will always be someone looking for different ways to improve that setup. After you make it as light as possible and as aero as possible the only other way to go is to design a bike that will play to the strengths of the engine more.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Wouldn't it be fun to see what the bike mfg's could come up with if there were no rules. Some sort of traditional/recumbant hybrid that does 35mph on the flats and climbs like a goat, but doesn't look cheesey.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [shakes] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bingo ...

that, and wind tunnel testing that is affordable
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [txtri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're thinking of the fastskin which uses material direction to reduce drag in the water. It also uses different materials to help reduce it also.

------------------------------------------------------------------
"The aspect of sport that you learn is that you have your good times and your bad times, but you share it with great people." - George Gregan

Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [tedspace] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I hope you will all indulge me while I get this off my chest...

Dear UCI and USCF:

Please, bite my ass.

Completely lacking respect, VM
Last edited by: VM: Jun 17, 05 12:11
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [VM] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
amen brother...



The Other TD
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I recently read something about these bumps: the leading edges on whale fins are not smooth but have such bumps, and when naval engineers tested an experimental foil with these features, they discovered to their astonishment that they produced less drag than a smooth leading edge. Hydrodynamic experts did not have a theory to explain this phenomenon, but the article went on to mention that ship- and aircraft-builders expressed great interest and are in the process of developing prototype foils with these bumps for experimental tests.

So I can certainly see this technology trickling down to the bicycle industry in about five years' time.

John
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The only problem with your "new" design, rodent-ducktape-boy, is that you haven't really explained what "problem" you are solving with your technobumps.

Not that I agree with the UCI, but just to play devil's advocate, and if you want a fine example of technology run amuck, look at F1 racing. The technology and resulting costs have gotten so out of hand that they are going to completely reign in the sport by 2008...check out http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html and the FIA's statement on their 2008 rules...
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The "problem" they solve is how to modify a UCI-legal frame in a way that it *looks* more aerodynamic than all the other "smooth" frames out there... in some obvious-to-joe-schmoe way.

Even if it's just marketing hype, they'll sell a bunch of them.

And if it really works (i.e. really is more aero than a smooth tube), well that's good too.


--------------------
Yes, I too now have a Blog. Don't laugh.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I thought I explained it perfectly clearly.
It would make the bike look radically different.

There's no way it couldn't stand out in pictures, transition areas, and consumers minds.


And on a different note, I know golf balls have used dimples for years.
I wasn't claiming Zipp invented them, I was using them as a marketing example.
Is the new Zipp disc any faster? Prove it.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [TwinDad] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not good enough...the guy with the hydro info comes closer to providing a "legitimate" answer...

I'm talking about "problems" like fairing the rear wheel...Gerard "solves" this one best with his P3 seat tube.

Zipp has allegedly "solved" a problem by dimpling their wheels, and affecting the boundry layer on the wheels...a well documented phenomenon...even if the gains in this application are debatable...at least they started from a documented issue.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
He's solving a marketing "problem," not a scientific or performance problem.


__________________________________________________
What a drag it is getting old. -- Stones
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Please all, let me say it again, and add...

Dear UCI and (later) USCF:

Making and implementing rules designed to put the clamps on a single rider (i.e. Chris Boardman) is completely ridiculous.

Oh, I almost forgot, BITE MY ASS.

Thank You, VM
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The reason dimples work on a golf ball are quite different than how they would want them to work on a disk wheel. A smooth sphere flying through the air creates a lot of turbulence off the back because the air tries to go straight off the 12 and 6 o'clock edges, creating a large zone of turbulence behind it. The dimples are designed to actually trap some of the air and drag it around the backside of the ball a little before it slides off, creating a much smaller zone of turbulence.
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [dire wolf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, but you can't SELL the solution to a marketing problem, even if thats what you are actually doing. You have to come up with some plausible scientific reason, even if you'd have to be going 300mph for it to make a significant difference...

You can't run an ad saying "We came up with this design because we knew you folks were gullible enough to buy it." Most of us would crucify a manufacturer for something like that.

No, you have to come up with something, in this case, that equates it to, say, the one poster's hydrodynamics phenomenons...

Folks are gullible to marketing...but only if you quote some actual science and describe the actual problem you are trying to "solve"...
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
For a few years, there were some truly innovative bike frame designs readily available - Trek Y-foil, Zipp 2001, Lotus, Softride, Giant MCR, Mongoose/BP Stealth, etc. Some worked better than others but thanks to the UCI's draconian rules, further development (with the exception of Softride) came to a screeching halt.

Their rationale is what totally escapes me - costs were getting out of hand ($20,000 one off Pinarello TT bikes - Indurain, Riis) so let's stifle creativity and not even allow production frames that cost less than "double diamond" designs.

I would like to ask the UCI how much Tyler Hamilton's BMC TT bike (with integrated aerobar/fork/headtube) cost and where one can buy it?

"You know you are getting old when you see your father in the mirror." anon.

Dean Wilson
http://www.anaerobiczone.com
Bicycle Protection Indoors & Out
Quote Reply
Re: Five years from now....The Future of Bike design [isbr] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I see the future and it is now. In ten years I will be riding a round tube steel fixed gear bike with a disk rear and deep dish front. Same as it ever was. Some things just don't need to change. That bike is plenty fast and fun to ride. The big question is what gear I will be pushing then.
Quote Reply

Prev Next