Tom,

Ignorance is bliss, but when they put your name to it then it is not just damaging to them but to your reputation, too.

Sent an email to your bikesport site last week about getting a fit with no response. Is that still a valid email? Would really like to have a competent fit on my current bike and you never know what purchases are in the future. ;)

Larry

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Larry

Don't be afraid to ride too long or too hard. That's what cell phones are for. Rich Strauss

Hi Larry, Sorry for not getting back to you. The past three weeks have been a little un-routine for me with a lot of travel. I was in Banff with my G/F, then in California at the FIST Fit Clinic and wrecked my car on the way to that so I had to deal with that (just got it back this morning- not in good shape). As soon as I started the process of getting my car out I had to get down to Florida quickly on Sunday and got back yesterday. Between all that and the crappy weather I haven't known whether I'm coming or going. I have answered about 1/8th of my e-mail from the last two weeks- mostly the stuff for customers trying to get bikes they bought 8 weeks ago. So, I apologize- the season is here and I'm behind. Typical deal. If you don't mind shooting the e-mail back to me I promise to read it (more quickly at the top of the date pile) and get back to you. This morning I've been posting from my G/F's laptop since there is so much snow I am going to the store later (gotta dig my house and my neighbor's out).

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom

Figured there was a reason. I'll repost my email and go from there. Thanks for the quick response.
Larry

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Larry

Don't be afraid to ride too long or too hard. That's what cell phones are for. Rich Strauss

Tom, I don't see how this is "dangerous" in the true sense of the word. However, unlike most of us, triathlon is your business and livelyhood, so it's certainly understandable how you would be upset if someone was attributing an improper bike fit to you that was not your work. That's a lot different than if the guy said that "cerveloguy" on the slowtwitch forum told him how to do it. Being that you are in the business, you have a reputation to protect. Your point is well taken, but since you are somewhat of a celebrity within the tri-geek world, it's probably not a surprise that this sort of thing could happen ocassionally.

No worries, again, my apologies to you.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Ahh, true. Dangerous is an overstatement and reflects my occasional penchant for overstatement. Perhaps "frustrating" may have been a better chracterization. Good point. For the record, you strike me as one of the guys for whom fit information may be used with the attendant caution and care it is due.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I'm not sure if this post is in reply to or a result of the question I posed moments ago about tweaking my position, but I would like to take the opportunity to further explain that request. My bike is pretty much set up. I've spec'd it based on several different criteria -- I've read all the fit stuff I can, I've logged a pretty good number of miles on several different bikes, I've even been through a professional fitting before -- so I have an idea on what I want/need. I also think I have enough sense to read information -- provided it is from reliable sources -- and follow the directions. So I guess I'm not trying to "fit" my bike as much as I am trying to "tweak" the position. I am not trying to fit others nor would I ever say that "so and so" from the forum said this is the way to do it.

I realize that by trying to do this myself I am taking a chance, and if I screw up, it is nobody's fault but my own. Who knows? Some of you may be able to purchase my screw ups on ebay soon!

That being said, I do not intend this to be construed as a flame. Nothing could be further from the truth. I posed my earlier question with more than a little trepidation because I do not consider all the information floating around out here reliable. However, I do consider Tom D. and many, many others as reliable sources of information.

I would love to get my position dialed in by a reputable fitter. But given my finances and my location I cannot. So I'll have to work on it myself until I can get to a good fitter.

RP

Tom, I hear you and feel for ya, man.

Let me get this straight, though...you don't release fit information at least prior to the sale. THAT makes perfect sense to me. You've got to protect your bottom line against the mail/e-order powerhouses. What about after you've made a sale? Am I missing something here in thinking there shouldn't be any real harm in that? I, for one, would like a record of it so that I could maintain those measurements on the bike, especially when I make inevitable changes of seatpost, stem, etc. when something sexier comes out. But then again, I tend toward loyalty to my local shops anyway even if it means I spend more.

I look at it like this: The system you use to come up with the measurements and recommendations is totally your intellectual property (well, maybe some of it is borrowed from others like Slowman, etc, but you know what I mean). I don't want to have the equations you used to come up with the numbers. If I did, I'd expect to pay you for them, or have to research it myself. The ACTUAL NUMBERS, however, are a product of your system and my body. I think that makes it property of both of us. Anybody with any basic knowlege of what we're dealing with here knows those measurements are highly individualistic, and therefore not applicable in any other way than for that particular customer and bike setup. I'm not sure how it could hurt for the customer to have that information, subsequent to actually purchasing the bike from your shop.

Regarding the guy who used your name in vain, that's just wrong. Lack of moral courage. Intellectual dishonesty. LYING. All the same. He just wanted to name drop. Totally immature and jv move! You and all the shops out there deserve better treatment from the customer. Although "the customer is always right," I think its a two way street and customers need to respect the sanctity of the shop too.

You know, as I was writing this a though occured to me: I've always hated those Nytro stickers all over bikes they sell and fit, mostly because I looked at it as free advertising, not to mention ruining the graphics scheme. But now I think, they might be onto something. Maybe you should stick something on the bikes you sell, besides the usual small sticker down by the bb. Maybe "Fit by TD," "BSM," or something that would become identifiable with you and your shop, as Nytro has.

I agree with Not a PCer. If someone comes into your store and pays for a fitting, they should walk away with a product-- the numbers from your fitting. That way they can replicate that fit on the same bike for equipment changes, match that fit for their other bikes if they so choose, or even modify that fit if they want to. They shouldn't take a modified fit and claim it was yours, but some of your customers might and it's a risk you'd have to face. Perhaps during the fit process you could discuss this issue with your customers, or even have them sign some sort of "agreement form" before commencing with the fit process if you feel the need for some type of pseudo-legal protection. If you're NOT going to give the measurements away, I'd certainly need to know that in advance, as I'd want the numbers.

What about the athlete that takes the bike apart for air travel. A Softride, for example, has to come way apart. Numbers would be good to make sure it is set up corectly at the race site.

We don't charge for the fit on a new bike.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

OK, Here's some clarification: If a guy buys a bike from us we don't charge for the fit AND we don't give him the numbers since he would potentially use them to buy elsewhere.
If someone comes in for an existing fit we also DON'T give them the numbers but we have been charging welll under the market rate for fits (usually less than $65) until recently. That do leave here with a tangible product in the form of the improvements we made in their position- but no "intellectual inventiry", i.e. measurements that may be of dubious use to them.

Someone made the point of assembling a bike after flight: Thank you for agreeing with me. People screw their positions up all the time trying to reassemble their bike from a flight case using a set of measurements. This is what I mean: I tell you your saddle height is precisely 72.4 cm. Easy right? Nope. I can give any three people in here a Lufkin metric tape measure, tell them "Set it to precisely 72.4 cm." and it is likely there will be enough variance between each of them that I could probably tell. And these are guys who measure dimension maybe 10-30 times per day at a minimum.

Yup, I hear your question: So what do you do? Well, I make a MINOR scribe in the seatpost then visually show the customer how to locate the post correctly. The man who pointed out the case of the Softride makes valid point however, and that opnes up another set of challenges that I do not have an answer for this second (but could if pressed and given more than 45 seconds to respond to).

Those are my thoughts- I hope that clears things up. Good Thread.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom, Here's a for instance: I'm going to change out the SLR currently atop my Saber in favor of the Aspide. Assuming I had purchased from you, I have a scribe mark appropriate for my SLR. Does this mean I need to come back to you for a refit with this different part? The post measurement would certainly be different. What about the saddle rails. They are differently located on these saddles, not to mention that Selle Italia's "0" is not Selle San Marco's "0" mark. If I've traveled from afar, like you mentioned one customer did, traveling back to get a new scribe mark is not an option. Having the measurements would allow me to duplicate the position, accuracy notwithstanding.

This may become a neverending "what if" thread, but it seems to me your policy may have some serious limitations from a customer standpoint.

I must be missing something here, I get fit by you, I walk out of the store, I take my tape measure & write down the numbers. Haven't your measurements just left the store? How are these measurements "dangerous in the wrong hands" & what does this have to do with someone who never had the info in the first place but claims they were fit by you (I understand being upset with that one - certainly defamatory if the guy had a lousy fit!). My fitter gave me all the measurements, & I immediately marked my seatpost etc so I'd be able to reproduce the fit if something got moved. I would have been more than a little POd if the guy had refused to write down the measurements!

Are you trying to say you don't share the fit methodology with your clients so they don't go out & try to fit others? If so, I'm with you there. Having some know it all mindlessly applying some formula for drop that ignores the client's flexibility & insisting it had to be so according to Tom would certainly be a bad situation.

Yes, we avoid sharing our fit methodology and reuslting measurements to prevent:

1. Mistakes through misinterpretation/misuse of numbers.
2. Theft of our process.
3. Possibility that information may be used to purchase a bike elsewhere after we have spent an hour with a client (WITHOUT charging them) to size them for a new bike.

We already had one employee leave the store and go elsewhere proclaiming he was an "expert in triathlon fit" (he did one triathlon). Not much we can do about that- the results speak for themselves when people have been "fitted" by him. Our ability to do a nice job fittng someone is a real and tangible asset. We don't want it profaned or compromised by someone who doesn't fully understand the process AND take commensurate responsitilty for the outcome. When we fit someone from start to finsih we take blame AND credit. When it works correctly (usually- almost always)we feel good about that. When we blow it (it's happened) we take responsibility for that and fix it- here in our store. I can't do that over the internet, by phone, etc. There is a saying in the bike industry, and pardon my vernacular: Fit a thousand bikes and you're not yet a bike fitter- but wreck one fit and you're a fit wrecker.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

your policy sucks.. plain and simple.. if I pay good money for a fit, I want the numbers. Uhh, how about providing numbers specific to the bike. Height of saddle from BB, offset from BB, stuff like that. Just enough info so someone can tweak minor aspects of their setup or break down their bike and reassemble it.

It's not really rocket science to bust out the tape meassure and figure out the details of a fit.

mike

[reply]
3. Possibility that information may be used to purchase a bike elsewhere after we have spent an hour with a client (WITHOUT charging them) to size them for a new bike.
[/reply]

My LBS charges $100 for the fit, even if you tell them you are going to buy a bike from them. They then refund you the $100 if you do purchase a bike from them, this way they make out, though not as good, if you do go somewhere else for the purchase. This $100 is for a full fitting on a size-cycle etc, if you purchase a bike and then get fit at that time on a trainer with some stem swaps etc then it is free.

A

I appreciate an honest opinion. For me the bottom line is that I am angry someone took fit information from A fitting I alledgedly did and then used it to fit themsleves incorrectly on the wrong bike- then, to make matters worse, he is in a another dealer saying "Tom Demerly fit me on this! Isn't it cool?" Sooner or later someone who knows something will say "Hey, you may think that bike is cool but it doesn't fit and was a bad choice for you." then I have to pay the price in getting my credibility compormised, when I didn't have the chance to properly maintain it. That sucks too.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Sorry Tom, but that reasoning makes no sense. I could just as easily walk out of your store with a bike which you truly "fit" me on, then change all sorts of things when I get home (e.g.., slide my saddle back on the rails, lower my seatpost, change my stem, etc.) and still claim to others that my messed up position was done by you. Face it: You have zero control over what people do when they leave your store.

Now, I don't like your policy of not providing the data either, but that just means that you (or others who have your policy) won't get my business. You are free to set your rules, and I'm free to chose whether or not I play your game and buy your service. That's just the market at work.

Brent

"Theft of our process"

Huh? Is it your process? No, certainly not. At best, its Dan's though he explicitly says that the process is not completely his either. Did you "steal" the process from Dan? Of course not. You paid him however much money and in exchange, he taught you how to fit anyone who comes into your shop on a tri-bike. If I pay you to show me how to fit myself on a tri-bike and I leave and fit (or re-fit) myself on a tri-bike, have I stolen something from you? I think not.

Bike shop owners seem to have trouble differentiating between selling goods (like bikes) and selling services (like a fit). They seem to want to tie one to the other. Sell me your goods for what you think they're worth, sell me your services for what you think they're worth. If that means I don't buy your goods, but I buy your services, at least you will have half a business. If you price your services for less than they're worth and try to charge more for your goods than they're worth, don't be upset when I buy your underpriced services and pass on the goods you've overpriced in favor of something I can get the internet.

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Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

"Fit Information: Dangerous in the Wrong Hands"

Sounds like it would be best if before we're allowed to puchase a fitting session, our local communities should mandate a 'three day cooling off period' and use that time to perform a background check.

We wouldn't want a proper fit to fall into the wrong hands.

But on the other hand, poor bike fits don't kill... People do.

Excellent advice. You won't take my Fit Kit until you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com