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FTP test - 13 days before 70.3
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Is 13 days before a 70.3 too close to the race to perform one last ftp test?

If the intention is using it to race by, and in terms of TSS prior to the taper...


Its about the entire journey, not just the moment you cross the line.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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You could probably do three FTP tests and be fine 13 days later. Test away.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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test away...you should be fine...also you can do it at 98% perceived effort (you know, like 4-8W down depending on your weight) and just not go to the final 2% and recover quicker. This should be "close enough" to give you the right pacing idea, but not play with the "overexertion" fire.

Dev
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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It should make for an excellent quality workout with plenty of time to recover and perhaps even gain a bit more fitness.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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if you've been training right, ie, done a lot of efforts at FTP or higher, then you should recover fine. If you've never done an FTP test before and have done all your rides super easy, it might not be a good idea.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [SpicedRum] [ In reply to ]
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Cool - was thinking that there is still heaps of time for recovery...
Am less worried now by the recovery aspect (my training has involved regular hard intervals and sufficient time in the saddle), now I am more curious about race-pace applicability of an FTP test result that I get in the next couple of days...

I have been using trainer road for the last few months with a Wahoo Kickr (not properly calibrated for the last few months). I found that my vector pedals and wahoo have been off from each other (I haven't ridden outdoors much in the last few months and my last 90km ride was at a good comfortable pace - felt good throughout and worked more from perceived effort than from the meter as it seemed very off - the average power was very low, and there were a lot of dropouts in my power when I was maintaining a very consistent pressure on the pedals) - my power recorded from my vectors measured significantly less than what the wahoo read - so I reinstalled them and recalibrated them both. That seemed to fix it and when I tested both side by side they now read the same.

Unfortunately, possibly due to some drift in the calibration of the wahoo, 200 watts on the wahoo felt a bit more difficult during this 5min comparison than it has for the last few weeks... hard to say whether its just my feeling on the day or not, but if there has been drift in the calibration then it means my hours of effort on the trainer have been less intense than they needed to ideally be. If I've been training so that my day to day training is based on an FTP that is only of 90% of what my true FTP is and I test now and come back with an FTP that is now much higher than I have been working from in my day to day training, then what effect will this have on my race day?

If I was (hypothetically) going to ride the Wahoo using the power set up that I have been training for for the last few months, then I could just use the power settings that I've been using for the last few months, I'd perform pretty much in line with what I have been training for for the last few months - probably less than if I had been really working at settings that better reflected my FTP.

I'm worried that if I calibrate now, get a much higher FTP, and then work from that, that I could blow up on the ride... Thoughts?

Current plan is to do an outdoor FTP test in the next day or so before the Busselton 70.3.

What I'm worried about is that because my outdoor FTP is an unknown, and since my race plan is to work off 75-80% FTP - then I will need more certainty about what my race day application should be.

Of course that should be based on the FTP that I have from the power meter that I am going to use in the race, but since my training is likely to have been as a percentage of a lower FTP, then when my FTP tests higher (as it should after a couple months without an accurate test) then should I work at a lower %? Or go with what my test suggests I am capable of? This assuming that I am well rested and that the rest of my taper goes well.


Its about the entire journey, not just the moment you cross the line.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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Even if the test is a full hour test you're looking at a TSS of what, 130-ish (including warmup and cool down) for the test day. If you can't recover from a 130 TSS ride two weeks out from a half iron you may have bigger issues. You doing a full hour or a 20 min test?
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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True. Not worried about the recovery at all now... I'll work a hard effort into tomorrow morning's session. I'm riding by myself so even though a 1 hour test would probably be more applicable, given the more endurance focussed nature of the distance I'm training for, I'm not sure if I can really kick my own arse enough to get a meaningful result for an entire hour by myself...


Its about the entire journey, not just the moment you cross the line.
Last edited by: HendrikMDik: Apr 20, 14 18:58
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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-do a test outside with your Vector pedal. use this as the reliable number.

On race day. DONT TRY TO HOLD A % of FTP......

ride with guideline instead of chasing watts.

Exemple:
On flat.... 90% of FTP is your limiter...if you see number above those, back off
short hills 1min or less up to 100-110% of your FTP is your limite if you see higher number, back off
longer hills 2-5min.... if you see anything above 100% of your FTP...back off

with those guide...simply ride by effort and look down at the power numbers to see if you are going too hard....and if you need to back off. Then as you get more and more data...you will be able to make more and more precise plans...

those % are simply exemple and depend of fitness/time on the course, preparation etc...

but dont chase a % of FTP on race day....lots of horror story coming from that....

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Horror stories?


Its about the entire journey, not just the moment you cross the line.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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horror story= running poorly!

if for some reason your body dosnt want to hold a % of FTP on race day, or even more, if you dont have the proper FTP to start with, trying to aim at a % of FTP will not help you pace properly.

But using your FTP to set limits and ride with powermeter as guide..... much safe way to get optimal results and run well off the bike

remember... it s all about the run!!!!

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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HendrikMDik wrote:
Cool - was thinking that there is still heaps of time for recovery...
Am less worried now by the recovery aspect (my training has involved regular hard intervals and sufficient time in the saddle), now I am more curious about race-pace applicability of an FTP test result that I get in the next couple of days...

I have been using trainer road for the last few months with a Wahoo Kickr (not properly calibrated for the last few months). I found that my vector pedals and wahoo have been off from each other (I haven't ridden outdoors much in the last few months and my last 90km ride was at a good comfortable pace - felt good throughout and worked more from perceived effort than from the meter as it seemed very off - the average power was very low, and there were a lot of dropouts in my power when I was maintaining a very consistent pressure on the pedals) - my power recorded from my vectors measured significantly less than what the wahoo read - so I reinstalled them and recalibrated them both. That seemed to fix it and when I tested both side by side they now read the same.

Unfortunately, possibly due to some drift in the calibration of the wahoo, 200 watts on the wahoo felt a bit more difficult during this 5min comparison than it has for the last few weeks... hard to say whether its just my feeling on the day or not, but if there has been drift in the calibration then it means my hours of effort on the trainer have been less intense than they needed to ideally be. If I've been training so that my day to day training is based on an FTP that is only of 90% of what my true FTP is and I test now and come back with an FTP that is now much higher than I have been working from in my day to day training, then what effect will this have on my race day?

If I was (hypothetically) going to ride the Wahoo using the power set up that I have been training for for the last few months, then I could just use the power settings that I've been using for the last few months, I'd perform pretty much in line with what I have been training for for the last few months - probably less than if I had been really working at settings that better reflected my FTP.

I'm worried that if I calibrate now, get a much higher FTP, and then work from that, that I could blow up on the ride... Thoughts?

Current plan is to do an outdoor FTP test in the next day or so before the Busselton 70.3.

What I'm worried about is that because my outdoor FTP is an unknown, and since my race plan is to work off 75-80% FTP - then I will need more certainty about what my race day application should be.

Of course that should be based on the FTP that I have from the power meter that I am going to use in the race, but since my training is likely to have been as a percentage of a lower FTP, then when my FTP tests higher (as it should after a couple months without an accurate test) then should I work at a lower %? Or go with what my test suggests I am capable of? This assuming that I am well rested and that the rest of my taper goes well.

Yes you will blow up if you go and race at a higher FTP than you have been training at. You have been training with a lower FTP and think you need to stick to that.
I see it almost like running a 5k and looking at the marathon you can run based off that. Just because you can run X 5k doesn't automatically mean you will run Y marathon. You need to put the work in the run that marathon time. So looking at it in this case, while you may have an FTP 20, 30, 50 watts higher it doesn't mean much as you have been using that as your training guide. I think your SOL.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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What a coincidence. I did my first ever FTP test today 13 days before St. George 70.3. I have been training with power on my Kickr and approximated my ftp @ 220 watts. A month ago I bought the Vector and on a single comparison to the Kickr it was a consistent 5 watts lower. I just have never felt comfortable on the Kickr doing long power workouts, but I can ride outdoors much harder. Sure enough, I pushed 232 watts for 22 minutes (buffer in case I missed the 20 minutes) which translates to the 220 watts. At 126 lbs, my friend said that is 3.85 watts/kg. So now I have something to shoot for at St. George.


HendrikMDik wrote:
Is 13 days before a 70.3 too close to the race to perform one last ftp test?

If the intention is using it to race by, and in terms of TSS prior to the taper...
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
-do a test outside with your Vector pedal. use this as the reliable number.

On race day. DONT TRY TO HOLD A % of FTP......

ride with guideline instead of chasing watts.

Exemple:
On flat.... 90% of FTP is your limiter...if you see number above those, back off
short hills 1min or less up to 100-110% of your FTP is your limite if you see higher number, back off
longer hills 2-5min.... if you see anything above 100% of your FTP...back off

with those guide...simply ride by effort and look down at the power numbers to see if you are going too hard....and if you need to back off. Then as you get more and more data...you will be able to make more and more precise plans...

those % are simply exemple and depend of fitness/time on the course, preparation etc...

but dont chase a % of FTP on race day....lots of horror story coming from that....
So you are saying don't chase a % of FTP on raceday yet give % of FTP "limiters"? Knowing full well most triathletes will try to hit that limit at all times.
Or to put it another way, I'm feeling great out of the swim and am rolling at the limit of your guidelines. But comes 2:30 in I'm about to get off the bike and I realize I'm cooked. Most AG athletes will ride a half anywhere from 70-85 % of FTP. Your scenario is gonna leave someone pretty damn close to 90%. While great for pros that sounds like a death march of a run for AGers.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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tucktri wrote:
jonnyo wrote:
-do a test outside with your Vector pedal. use this as the reliable number.

On race day. DONT TRY TO HOLD A % of FTP......

ride with guideline instead of chasing watts.

Exemple:
On flat.... 90% of FTP is your limiter...if you see number above those, back off
short hills 1min or less up to 100-110% of your FTP is your limite if you see higher number, back off
longer hills 2-5min.... if you see anything above 100% of your FTP...back off

with those guide...simply ride by effort and look down at the power numbers to see if you are going too hard....and if you need to back off. Then as you get more and more data...you will be able to make more and more precise plans...

those % are simply exemple and depend of fitness/time on the course, preparation etc...

but dont chase a % of FTP on race day....lots of horror story coming from that....

So you are saying don't chase a % of FTP on raceday yet give % of FTP "limiters"? Knowing full well most triathletes will try to hit that limit at all times.
Or to put it another way, I'm feeling great out of the swim and am rolling at the limit of your guidelines. But comes 2:30 in I'm about to get off the bike and I realize I'm cooked. Most AG athletes will ride a half anywhere from 70-85 % of FTP. Your scenario is gonna leave someone pretty damn close to 90%. While great for pros that sounds like a death march of a run for AGers.


1- with the guideline i gave, you would be at mile 2 or 3 on the run comes 2:30.....

now, if i get a dumb athlete like you mention, i will set the limit lower ;) I m a big believer in ride for show...run for dough.

the % i gave were a example to explain the system, not a recommendation for the OP...

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
Last edited by: jonnyo: Apr 20, 14 21:19
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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@jonnyo - Adding limiters for specific sections like hills etc makes sense, but I find it easy to cruise at a much lower intensity on longer rides without realising it. So having a minimum can be a handy kick in the pants on shorter distances, helps to give a little kick if you feel a little slack. But I haven't done a 70.3 yet so I'll defer to the wisdom of the group.

Not having a max for the flats could lead to a blow up as well though right? I know I can't trust my perceived exertion in the first 5 or 10 km's when my legs feel really fresh.

But it's sound advice to not have %FTP as an absolute minimum to stay above at all costs, if I'm not feeling it on the day I'll remember it and save my effort for the run like you suggested. Cheers

@ tuckTri - So are you suggesting I set my FTP based on what I find tomorrow but aim for a conservative % of FTP i.e. Aim for .7 instead of .85? The problem I have is that because of poor calibration, I'm not sure what my FTP really is. I have been upping it in trainer road to get a few more percent out of my workouts over the last couple of months, so it should be somewhere higher than it has been. I did read however that for a 1st shot at a 70.3 it makes sense to aim lower anyway, and to save my legs for the last half of the run?

In my long runs the last couple of days I aimed for a negative split my last half and during the last 8km I beat my old 5k record! Using a 5k as a race predictor may not give an accurate predictor of marathon performance (your statement is this is if the candidate has done all their training at 5k distance right?), but training for a half has made me a better runner overall that I've ever been! Even my 1mile time has fallen recently.

@Karlw2000 - will be interested to hear how you find the transfer from kickr to vector on open road. I've only done a couple of rides outdoors lately after spending the hotter part of summer indoors in front of b-grade movies and have found that I'm definitely a lot fitter from having the targeted focus to training that the kickr and trainer road brings. Still, it does feel a lot like an experiment... I'm aiming to spend my race pace rides during taper on the bike outdoors to blow off the cobwebs. I'm seriously curious what this FTP test will bring tomorrow! I haven't felt as fit as I do at the moment. Have you tried a longer ride with your indoor trained legs yet? How did it go?


Its about the entire journey, not just the moment you cross the line.
Last edited by: HendrikMDik: Apr 21, 14 0:41
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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Well I think some numbers would add some perspective to this topic. What have you been doing your workouts in? IF I am talking about. There is a big difference if your old lower FTP was say 200, but it is really 250. I guess my point is that you trained at one lower FTP but want to race at a higher FTP. You haven't put the time in at that higher FTP. But if it is just a calibration issue and you don't know where you have been training I don't know what to say.

Do you have another metric like HR that you have been using? An idea where your FTP is? If you are about two weeks out why not do a mini race rehearsal. A good 90' effort at 85-90% of what you think your FTP is followed by 10k run. This way you will have a decent idea of what you can hold on the bike and how you will feel coming off it to run.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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OK, some numbers...
Oct/Nov last year I FTP tested with a result of around 220. Did some training a a few sprint races before testing again in Dec with a 20min outdoor FTP test at 251; I went on a one month honeymoon over Xmas (absolutely no training over 5 weeks) and came back and did a few easy outdoor rides before jumping on the Kickr, did an FTP test late Jan and it gave me back an FTP of 190 indoors. Too much tequilla and fish tacos over the month off? I stuck it out for a couple of weeks before retesting at 220. The Garmin initially seemed close to the Kickr.

I started the TrainerRoad HIM programme about the same time and calibrated occasionally over the first few weeks, kept getting the same results. I kept riding the Kickr indoors, sweated a LOT, and that sweat went everywhere on the bike, including in the pedals Im guessing.
I haven't done an FTP test since Feb, but when the TR started feeling way way too easy on the long easy rides (HR during 20min sweet spot intervals never rising above 130, I bumped the FTP on it up to 230 mid march which gave me an extra 10bpm of HR and made it feel nicer on the 2 hour+ sessions).

Late March I bumped it up again to 240 and have done a few sessions to keep the legs going, but I've been spending less time on the bike indoors this month. Still feels easy, and the HR is at around 139 at 200watts.

A 3 1/2 hour outdoor ride i did a couple of weeks ago had my heart rate average at 147bpm, and my average power at 147 (from the garmin). I averaged 27.9 km/hr (including traffic lights etc); it felt good but I didn't ride after it. The pedals were consistently reading 30-40watts lower than the kickr so I did spin down a couple of days ago and got the bike properly serviced (there was a lot of salt and sweat in everything on the bike!). Now the TR sessions feel a bit harder at the 240 I've been using, but the garmin is reading within a few 5watts of the Kickr.

Will go do the outdoor FTP test now and get back to you in a couple of hours.


Its about the entire journey, not just the moment you cross the line.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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FTP test gave 213watts.

Substantially down on what my peak was in December (260 watts over 20mins HR:174bpm vs 224watts over 20mins HR166bpm this time).

My heart rate is much lower for this effort; so I think I could have pushed quite a bit harder than I did, but there is a huge difference between indoor and outdoor riding - and it also really helps to have someone to chase to squeeze out the last bit of effort.


Looking at the Strava segments for the circuit, my fastest lap this time was my 3rd fastest overall, except now I'm using aero bars instead of riding on the hoods like I did last time, so the power figures do appear to make sense.

I've spent almost all of my time for the past few months at 70% to 95% of estimated FTP, so is it possible that my FTP has actually dropped or that since I'm used to riding more relaxed so that I just don't naturally push it as hard? When I was training for sprints, I used to quite comfortably cruise along at HR 180bpm, this time now I was really aware of the lactic acid in my legs... something I haven't really had when focussing on long easy efforts for the last few months.

Dissappointing. I had visions of a higher FTP after spending so much time sweating in front of crappy movies while everyone else was asleep. But at least it gives a realistic target. Busselton is a flat course, so as long as the wind plays nice then aiming for 70 to 75% FTP should get me off the bike in around in around 3 hours with plenty of juice left for the run.

Does this seem right? Does working mainly on longer rides at easier efforts tend to drop power for shorter distances? The longer distances do feel a lot easier than they did before, but I don't seem to have the punch in my legs that I did before starting this longer distance training plan...


Its about the entire journey, not just the moment you cross the line.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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I say risk it and ride at 80% of the 213 number...I am not a real coach, I just play one on the computer.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [blueraider_mike] [ In reply to ]
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You sound convincing enough for me.

I could take 5mins of my total time if I did that! Thats enough time to scull a beer at T4!


Its about the entire journey, not just the moment you cross the line.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [HendrikMDik] [ In reply to ]
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5mins to scull a beer? You need to work on your functional beveraging pace. Shamefull.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [oakie] [ In reply to ]
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True. It probably is dangerous to have that kind of free time on my hands with a thirst like I have already... 5mins is more than enough time to get in trouble, I'm not drink-fit so going to hard too early could ruin the rest of my race.


Its about the entire journey, not just the moment you cross the line.
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
tucktri wrote:
jonnyo wrote:
-do a test outside with your Vector pedal. use this as the reliable number.

On race day. DONT TRY TO HOLD A % of FTP......

ride with guideline instead of chasing watts.

Exemple:
On flat.... 90% of FTP is your limiter...if you see number above those, back off
short hills 1min or less up to 100-110% of your FTP is your limite if you see higher number, back off
longer hills 2-5min.... if you see anything above 100% of your FTP...back off

with those guide...simply ride by effort and look down at the power numbers to see if you are going too hard....and if you need to back off. Then as you get more and more data...you will be able to make more and more precise plans...

those % are simply exemple and depend of fitness/time on the course, preparation etc...

but dont chase a % of FTP on race day....lots of horror story coming from that....

So you are saying don't chase a % of FTP on raceday yet give % of FTP "limiters"? Knowing full well most triathletes will try to hit that limit at all times.
Or to put it another way, I'm feeling great out of the swim and am rolling at the limit of your guidelines. But comes 2:30 in I'm about to get off the bike and I realize I'm cooked. Most AG athletes will ride a half anywhere from 70-85 % of FTP. Your scenario is gonna leave someone pretty damn close to 90%. While great for pros that sounds like a death march of a run for AGers.


1- with the guideline i gave, you would be at mile 2 or 3 on the run comes 2:30.....

now, if i get a dumb athlete like you mention, i will set the limit lower ;) I m a big believer in ride for show...run for dough.

the % i gave were a example to explain the system, not a recommendation for the OP...

The bold made me laugh! I think we all have to make those "adjustments" with athletes' training and race plans sometimes to protect them from themselves.

Question, Jonathan - You're cautioning against chasing % of FTP because of blowing up on the run. Are you talking about Average Power or Normalized Power? Or, either way, you don't do it? I normally set targets for races based on NP, not AP, because it's the more conservative approach, and I feel it's less likely to result in an implosion during the run.

____________________________________________
Don Larkin
Reach For More
http://www.reachformore.fit/
USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, BS Exercise Science
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Re: FTP test - 13 days before 70.3 [TriMyBest] [ In reply to ]
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Don, i dont use NP or AP but for feedback after the ride. I have athletes look at instant power (or 3 sec avg...)

Usually, after all the preparation for a race, a athlete knows very well what they should do and how to pace themself. My session always have the bike main set in the last hour or later part of a long ride so they learn on a daily basis to save some energy for later.

i simply set some RED ZONE of power. Every Time you go in thoses, your running slow down a few 1-3sec/miles. But i let them ride a lot by feel with the simple guide of where not too go...what matches not too burn.

Most of them time, you end up with the exact AP you would have predicted. But i want the rider to understand how costly it is to ride above threshold or spike of power can be even on small hills. The average tell is a bit of the story...but how you VI also tell us another big part.

And for the professional athletes, it tell them right away if the group they are in is riding above there capacity....should they back off/are they riding with a bunch of wannabe that surge and slow down but wont be a factor on the run? you get to know very quickly if someone will be a factor on the run just by the spike in power etc.

Yes, NP is a better target than AP. I just like to do it differently

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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