Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:06

Post #101 of 154 (7830 views)

"Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year�s water conditions appeared much calmer"

i would like to know the following, from you and anyone else who did the race. eric gilsenen has produced and narrated a fabulous set of videos over the years that show the alcatraz race. in those videos i see some pretty rough water. not appreciably less rough than the water from this past weekend. i'll concede that the water was rougher than in years past, however, the videos i have seen seem to me to display the difficulty of this race pretty well. except for the fact that 51 degrees is an expected, not anomalous, water temperature for this time of year and i don't see anywhere where this was mentioned on the website.

however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:19

Post #102 of 154 (7792 views)

the race director and host of the videos (Eric?) repeatedly stressed watching these videos at the optional pre-race meeting Friday night at Sports Basement then again at the mandatory meeting on Saturday afternoon near transition

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Last edited by: Callin': Mar 6, 13 12:22

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:21

Post #103 of 154 (7788 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

We can't get rid of the cold water part in racing, and we can't get rid of the "wetsuit part", but we can get rid of the 2000 people simultaneously and we can add warmup areas.

Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit.

Same here, twice (several years apart)... Experienced swimmer (usually top 10-15% or so), including open water, river currents, bays, ocean, etc; done plenty of other mass starts w/ a wetsuit besides those 2 occasions, and after having experienced the first one I wouldn't have thought it could happen again since I had a better sense of what to expect, and yet even though I could feel it approaching the second time I was not able to suppress it. Had to flip over and do a little backstroke to catch my breath and settle down both times.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:31

Post #104 of 154 (7753 views)

Dan, are the videos you referring to these ones? http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/Race_Info/Race_Tips.htm

It's a legit question, youtube is blocked at work so I don't know who produced/narrated those.

If those are the ones you are talking about however, then the answer is a definitive yes. Weekly newsletters were sent in the build up the race, each one focusing on a different aspect of the race (swim, bike course, run) with the videos attached.

At the mandatory athletes briefing they asked the crowd, "Did you watch the videos?", and the response was a large majority yes. Between the athletes briefing, the announcements during the morning, and the repeated announcements over the PA on the boat itself, advice was continued to be offered about the swim, reiterating sighting and swimming guidance. We all sounded like zombies reciting back "Swim across the river" to the multiple prods from race organizers to drill it into our head.

The point of all of this is that despite all of the claims from participants of unpreparedness, this race has the greatest emphasis on pre-race education that I have personally witnessed. That's not necessarily saying a lot since most races have no emphasis on it, but I think it is truly unfair to pick out this race and this RD as a scapegoat.

Again, could they have done more? Sure, but are they already doing more than seemingly everyone else? I'd say yes again.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:33

Post #105 of 154 (7749 views)

Slowman wrote:

"however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?

Escape is by far the most proactive and communicative race I have participated in over 20 years of a variety of endurance events.

I have nine "newsletters" in my inbox from escape which were distributed on a pre-established schedule beginning immediately after registration. These newsletters each focus on one aspect of the race, including logistics and detailed descriptions of what to expect on the SWIM, bike and run course. The key points are reiterated in two follow up newsletters immediately prior to the event. You can view them here: http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/...wsletter_Archive.htm

The swim newsletter states:

The water temperature will be approximately 52-54 degrees Fahrenheit and there should be minimal chop because the race will start at 7:30 AM prior to the winds picking up. The current on race morning will be pulling participants west (towards the Golden Gate Bridge). As a result, as participants 'swim across the river' left to right, they will be 'pulled' in the correct direction to end up right in front of the St Francis Yacht Club adjacent to the swim exit. Hot Tip: For information on sighting during the swim, please view all the instructional videos on the Official Event Website.

Participants are directed multiple times to a series of instructional videos, including several regarding the SWIM: http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/Race_Info/Race_Tips.htm

The RD offers a clinic that gives you a day of instruction and a practice swim in the bay.
http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/...r/Escape_Academy.htm

More than half of the discussion at the 1 hour athete's meeting focused on the swim. The RD asked for a show of hands regarding who had watched the swim video. He then told everyone to go back to their rooms and watch the videos (again).

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Elevation] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:36

Post #106 of 154 (7739 views)

Elevation wrote:

Thanks for posting this video that shows how �rough� rough can truly be on the SF Bay in the winter. Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year�s water conditions appeared much calmer. It'd be great if the race directors post this valuable video on their website to concretely illustrate what "rough" really is and give people a reality check on their mental and physical abilities.

I trusted that the race directors chose March 3 because, although chilly, it would be the ideal tide conditions outside of the Escape's regular June summer date. But the SF Bay�s winter conditions proved to be unpredictable and rougher than any of us could have imagined. Hopefully the Escape will never have to be scheduled outside of it�s June summer date again.

Uh, no. The conditions were certainly rough in the extreme, even harsher than the norm for a notably tough race, but hardly unpredictable nor unimaginable to anyone who's done their homework. Winter/spring conditions on the north/central Pac coast (where the prevailing oceanic current is carrying colder water southward from the Gulf of Alaska along WA/OR/CA, unlike the warmer gulfstream flowing northward along the East Coast) is notoriously dicey more often than not. It's a sad outcome, but there's no way the risks should come as a surprise, just as when experienced climbers die at high altitude. Here, don't just take my word for it:

Oleander wrote:

I'm not trying to imply that the extra-cold water this year contributed to this particular death. However, I think the race directors should have their heads examined for staging this race in MARCH!

I swim year-round at Aquatic Park, as do many of my fellow members at the South End Rowing Club. Not speaking for my club here, but I know a few things:

1. Feb. 9 is the median coldest swim-temp day of the year. This year's race was placed only 3 weeks after this date.
2. This year, the winter swimming temps have been just slightly colder than usual. If you got 51 degrees at the race, that was lucky. It's been 49-50.
3. WIND peaks in the spring, between early March and end of May. Big-sea conditions are what you get about every other day.
4. TIDES are the least predictable in the spring. Often they are stronger than usual. Timing can be off what the tide tables say, by more than an hour. There can be maddening eddies near the shoreline. This makes it challenging even for highly experienced swim directors to instruct swimmers as to what they should sight on.
5. This combination of difficult conditions - temps, wind, and tides - subside like clockwork every year, by June 1. The Escape is usually in June. Temps by then are between 57-62, and persist at 57-62 till late October.

In other words, Sunday's swim conditions were no anomaly. Entirely predictable.

Lifeguards I spoke to said they pulled more people from this swim than from any Escape in memory, and that the swimmers were terrified.

Summer water temps persist through October, and wind (and wind-driven waves) are minimal in the fall. The race directors moved the date to avoid conflicts with the summer America's Cup races. Why did they not move the Escape to October?

I have completed 10 swims from Alcatraz - the first was at the 2006 Escape, the other 9 have been with my swim club. I almost never do Alcatraz swims between January 1 and April 30; conditions are not to my liking. (That said, many people do - but they are no novices.)

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:43

Post #107 of 154 (7722 views)

Dan,
I did the race and yes the videos were stressed. Emails were sent on a weekly basis with a new video attached, plus, at the pre race meeting it was stressed that if we had not already watched the videos that we absolutely should. All that being said, here is my two cents, I am a strong swimmer and I did not swim well. I am not opposed to the mass start, I think it is part of our sport and if you take it away it changes our sport. The cold I don't think was a huge factor but I spent two days at aquatic park getting acclimated The chop and tide I was not prepared for, I never was scared or freaked out, but I could not swim the way I wanted to. I do not think the race directors here are to blame (first death in 33 years) and I think that we all need to step back and look at it from the outside. Swimming from Alcatraz is not something that should be done on a whim, and I bet that every swimmer that was pulled from the water if they are honest would admit that they had no business in that race. As far as the race director goes the only suggestions I would make would be to not allow first timers in the race, including first time open water swimmers. 2nd it should have been stressed to all participants to arrive in San Fran early enough to get acclimated to the cold water, that made a big difference for me. 3rd- It should be made clear that your normal smooth water stroke and breathing technique may not work if the wind is up and that is something even strong and seasoned swimmers need to prepare for. Finally, do the back ground checks on the applicants previous swims, it is not difficult and could keep people from lying to get a spot. If someone signs up for a marathon or a century ride and has no business doing it then they can just stop, no harm no foul. The water is different, it will not forgive the unprepared. Most of the blame is on ourselves. The cold, the chop, and the jump off the boat all add to what makes this race so special, and such a challenge. I don't think we should take away from that.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tgarson] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:43

Post #108 of 154 (7721 views)

tgarson wrote:

However, I will never concede on the point of personal accountability. No amount of education or warning in the world will help if people simply ignore it. Sure, some form of compulsorily medical examination might help by removing the personal choice from the matter, but how is the absurdity of that statement not self-evident? We have to force people to look out for their own well-being? Is self-preservation not the most basic and universal of all instincts?

Any death is a tragedy, and this is no different. But life is full of measured risks, and it's my responsibility to decide which ones I'm willing to take or potentially suffer the consequences.

THIS x 1,000,000.

My 3rd triathlon, almost a year after almost 20 years of couch potatoing was an IM. I combed the internet for race reports, I swam in those same seas countless times before the IM (local one) and rode the same roads. I joined BT and ST and read and researched. I did not let the RD decide anything for me.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:48

Post #109 of 154 (7710 views)

Slowman wrote:

"Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year�s water conditions appeared much calmer"

i would like to know the following, from you and anyone else who did the race. eric gilsenen has produced and narrated a fabulous set of videos over the years that show the alcatraz race. in those videos i see some pretty rough water. not appreciably less rough than the water from this past weekend. i'll concede that the water was rougher than in years past, however, the videos i have seen seem to me to display the difficulty of this race pretty well. except for the fact that 51 degrees is an expected, not anomalous, water temperature for this time of year and i don't see anywhere where this was mentioned on the website.

however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?

As a first timer, I watched ALL the videos on the website and any I could find on YouTube. I was ready for cold rough waters. I knew I had to swim 'across the river'. Once I dove into the water, all that went out the door. The first 30 seconds of pain as my balls raced north to snuggle behind the heat of my heart. Swimming across the river would be great if I could have seen across the river. Again, all my training was in a pool (live in MI). I haven't been in open water since September. The challenging conditions I was prepared for turned out to be significantly more challenging than I was expecting. It was just more than physically challenging, it was a mental beat down. Stay calm, focus, sight, stroke, repeat. It was one hell of a mental challenge.

In hindsight, there are some things the videos don't teach/show: how spread out everybody is, what to expect when you hit the water, difficulty of sighting, etc. Much of that is explained in paper, but many things sound great on paper but not very close to real life. Another thing I wasn't prepared or under estimated was the wait on the boat. I wish they stressed nutrition during the wait better, but only because many people are new to this event. It's my own fault for not understanding it, but there were so many things going on. I sat on the boat for over 90 minutes with no nutrition. I accept responsibility for that, I was just focused on other aspects of the race.

Side note: WTF does this race have against GU gel? There was a GU booth but they didn't sell their own product. The ONLY vendor that sold GU sold the blocks, not actual gel. I didn't bring any GU from MI because every race I've ever done had GU available. I couldn't find GU gel anywhere. My Walgreens up the road in MI sells GU gel. Not the Walgreens in SF. I've been to smaller grass-roots races that have had more vendors than this race had. I could have brought stuff from my closet that I don't wear and have more products than the 'athlete village' had. I've never seen such a lack of nutrition from a race that had an international crowd. The website mentioned GU and other vendors so I figured I could buy most of my nutrition there. The GU vendor didn't sell their product. WTF? I think the website oversold the 'athlete village'. It was a joke.

Somebody above criticized those who were 'complaining'. There is a big difference between complaining and sharing feedback. Just because somebody says it was harder than expected, etc doesn't mean they are complaining. It has nothing to do with complaining, it's just sharing experience versus expectations. I have zero complaints about the swim, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to share how the swim kicked my ass. The only complaint I have was the 'athlete village'. Again, that was pretty pathetic.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:51

Post #110 of 154 (7699 views)

GreatScott wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?

Escape is by far the most proactive and communicative race I have participated in over 20 years of a variety of endurance events.

I have nine "newsletters" in my inbox from escape which were distributed on a pre-established schedule beginning immediately after registration. These newsletters each focus on one aspect of the race, including logistics and detailed descriptions of what to expect on the SWIM, bike and run course. The key points are reiterated in two follow up newsletters immediately prior to the event. You can view them here: http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/...wsletter_Archive.htm

The swim newsletter states:

The water temperature will be approximately 52-54 degrees Fahrenheit and there should be minimal chop because the race will start at 7:30 AM prior to the winds picking up. The current on race morning will be pulling participants west (towards the Golden Gate Bridge). As a result, as participants 'swim across the river' left to right, they will be 'pulled' in the correct direction to end up right in front of the St Francis Yacht Club adjacent to the swim exit. Hot Tip: For information on sighting during the swim, please view all the instructional videos on the Official Event Website.

Participants are directed multiple times to a series of instructional videos, including several regarding the SWIM: http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/Race_Info/Race_Tips.htm

The RD offers a clinic that gives you a day of instruction and a practice swim in the bay.
http://www.escapefromalcatraztriathlon.com/...r/Escape_Academy.htm

More than half of the discussion at the 1 hour athete's meeting focused on the swim. The RD asked for a show of hands regarding who had watched the swim video. He then told everyone to go back to their rooms and watch the videos (again).

I did a blog post very every newsletter, mainly for myself (force me to read an interpret each newsletter). It was extremely beneficial information. The practice swim is more for locals or others who arrive early. I believe most people arrived on Friday.

Anybody else impressed with how fast pictures were posted? Less than 24 hours, the photos are in my inbox. I've waited a month for photos from races have the size. Granted the photos are insanely expensive, but of course I bought them all.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 12:53

Post #111 of 154 (7696 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Elevation wrote:

I did completed the swim. Escape From Alcatraz was my first triathlon and first time in rough open water. I signed up for the race only a few months ago, on whim, through a charity bid, because I thought it would be a cool way to celebrate my 50th birthday. Plus gain some serious bragging rights to complete one of the world's most challenging triathlons where 80% of the participants are male and only 1% are in my age/gender group of females 50-54. But that kind of whimsical thinking may contribute to why triathlon deaths are on the rise...recreational athletes don't fully comprehend that this is not a staged thrill ride at an amusement park. It is something to seriously think through, research and more than sufficiently train for.

If I had known the valuable info in Oleander's post, I would have never put myself through the Escape's already challenging swim in these Winter conditions. After the race, I learned about the tragic death of a 46 year old participant. I haven't slept well since, as the brutal water conditions keep playing in my mind. I guess I'm allowing my fear to finally be released now. Somehow I kept from seriously panicking out there in the Bay. If I had known that someone died at the start of the swim, I would have never jumped off that boat. About 150 swimmers were plucked from the water and repositioned, 3 times the normal amount. 10 decided not to continue, whereas on a normal year only 3-4 make that call.

I'm not a strong swimmer, only having started Masters Swimming sessions a couple of months ago, and a month before that I couldn't even swim two pool laps without gasping for breath. If I was the race director, I wouldn't let someone like me get on the boat. But I figured that my mental and physical endurance training from marathon running would be sufficient to get away with only 3.5 months to learn how to ride a road racing bike with clipless pedals and swim in rough open water.

But swimming laps in a pool can not prepare you for being shoved around by the strong outgoing currents from the left and then slammed by the 6' swells formed by the 11 mph ocean winds coming in on your right. This information should be provided to the participants that morning so they were fully aware of what was out there and then make an informed decision about whether to continue or not. But the only thing we knew was that the water temperature was 51 and the air temp 52 (last year's race in June the water was 60 and air 70). I had no real idea what "rough" truly entailed under these unusually harsh conditions due to the race being held in winter instead of summer.

I'm sure that Ross Ehlinger initially thought the Escape was a fun and cool challenge, too. He probably planned to proudly show his finisher's medal to his three young boys. Instead, his wife had to witness his lifeless body on the dock while she cried "He said he could do it...", as first responders averted their eyes from the heart breaking scene. This could have been me and my family. Or yours.

So, can another tragedy like this be prevented? Perhaps requiring a signed certificate from your doctor saying that you have cleared a basic physical and appear to have the mental and physical ability to undergo such a demanding undertaking? Maybe a commitment from race organizers to not schedule races during the Winter's harsh swells and immobilizing cold? Proof that you've completed at least "x" amount of triathlons that involved open water swims? If this is your first tri, then a certificate from a swim program/workshop showing that you successfully engaged in an open water swim with currents and swells? The ability to clear a lottery and hand over $400 should not be the only firm requirement to engage in a potentially life threatening activity.

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing and glad you are here.

To Manofthewoods. I have been racing tris since 1985. I am not a beginner. My best IM swim times before shoulder and neck injuries were 54 and 56 minutes (56 minutes at IMC, so legit....54 in Roth). I'm not a novice nor "weak swimmer". Nevertheless, I am completely opposed to 2 things:

large mass starts
no swim warmup area

Like you, I need a long warmup. I prefer to ride my bike 20 minutes (if possible) from hotel to race venue to get my heart rate going in a benign environment....then ideally a swim warmup, but if I can't do a swim warmup a run warmup. A race like Alcatraz which I have no intention of over doing, I would not be able to do any of these.

I am yet to hear of anyone dying at the start of masters swim practice at the Y, but we always hear about guys dying at the start of triathlons. How come no one is dying at masters swim at the start of their morning swim? Why? I don't know, but no one starts masters swim in a full out sprint with 2000 people swimming over their back in cold water with a wetsuit on.

We can't get rid of the cold water part in racing, and we can't get rid of the "wetsuit part", but we can get rid of the 2000 people simultaneously and we can add warmup areas.

Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit.

Dev

IM Louisville 2011.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [japarker24] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 13:10

Post #112 of 154 (7660 views)

japarker24 wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit.

Dev

IM Louisville 2011.

Philly 2010 http://articles.philly.com/...e-bike-248-mile-bike

Last edited by: WelshinPhilly: Mar 6, 13 13:14

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 13:10

Post #113 of 154 (7658 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Is anyone aware of an athlete dying at the start of a swim in a no wetsuit race (maybe there are)? Personally I never have panic/hyperventilation without wetsuit, but I have had it with wetsuit. Dev

Sorry, Dev, but someone with your knowledge and experience should offer and explanation as to how a wetsuit might increase the risk of panic/hyperventilation. I am on record of agreeing with you. A wetsuit that is too tight in the torso probably does increase the work of breathing. The wetsuit used for racing might be tighter than the training wetsuit. Or, the wetsuit used in training might be tighter on RACE DAY, especially if we follow the feeding and hydration advice of pros like Lauren Goss (on her Facebook page).

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 13:20

Post #114 of 154 (7629 views)

okay, one more question. is it only in the newsletters that you really find out how hard this race is? or during the entry process, or anytime pre-entry, do you think it's obvious enough how nonstandard and hard and weird and cold this swim is?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 13:34

Post #115 of 154 (7600 views)

Not sure if anyone has an exact copy of the lottery registration form, but I am pretty sure there is mention of the race's difficulty in the form itself, and positive that it requests you to provide race results from recent races that indicate that you are qualified to participate.

If you read the Lottery FAQ on the race site, they explain that the lottery is not equal odds, entrants who have completed Escape a number of times before are given greater priority. This could be twofold, one to reward past participants, but has the added benefit of ensuring those people know what they are in for. Unclear how much, if at all, other races listed in the lottery form qualifications section matter.

Lastly, from the FAQ, plainly listed on the home page:

Quote:

Is this a good race for first-timers?
A: This race is extremely challenging and we do not recommend for first-time triathletes unless you have experience in similar disciplines, are in excellent physical condition, or have been working out with an experienced trainer or coach. We recommend attending an Escape Academy Clinic if you are training for this as a first-time triathlon or even if you are experience but have never done this particular race before.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 13:50

Post #116 of 154 (7566 views)

Slowman wrote:

okay, one more question. is it only in the newsletters that you really find out how hard this race is? or during the entry process, or anytime pre-entry, do you think it's obvious enough how nonstandard and hard and weird and cold this swim is?

The entry process did have athletes enter in swim times from previous races. However, from my perspective this didn't really highlight any danger of the swim, just that the swim was difficult, which we all know, otherwise what fun is the race. We all know that the swim is different than a 'normal' tri swim. The newsletters highlight the differences but don't highlight the 'intensity' of these differences. I knew from the newsletters that there was a current. That the water was cold. I didn't really think about rough waters (waves) so I was surprised to see the whitecaps in the middle of the bay. Again, the newsletter doesn't prepare you for the shock of hitting 51 degree water with waves crashing over your head.

The newsletters could have added some information about how the body reacts to such a shock. For me that was dizziness and lost of equilibrium.

The actual jump in the water part was fine. The volunteer pushed me off the boat so I went in kinda sideways instead of feet first. I wasn't hesitating, I just stepped up, looked for a spot where no bodies were, but next thing I knew I was in the air.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 13:55

Post #117 of 154 (7561 views)

"the newsletter doesn't prepare you for the shock of hitting 51 degree water with waves crashing over your head."

the newsletter tried to prepare you for the shock of 52 degree water with waves crashing over your head. to that end, it failed by 1 degree. otherwise, and i don't mean to be flippant, because i'm entirely serious: what would have prepared you? i ask because if there is text that folks like you can provide that would do a better job of describing what it really does feel like, maybe this could be a model for what this and other races write or say to describe to prospective entrants really what's in store for them.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [tgarson] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 14:00

Post #118 of 154 (7554 views)

"This race is extremely challenging and we do not recommend for first-time triathletes unless you have experience in similar disciplines, are in excellent physical condition, or have been working out with an experienced trainer or coach"

So they are saying they recommend the race for first-time triathletes if you are in excellent physical condition. Personally, I disagree with that recommendation.

From pictures I've seen, that swim course is more than challenging - it's dangerous.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 14:02

Post #119 of 154 (7549 views)

Slowman wrote:

okay, one more question. is it only in the newsletters that you really find out how hard this race is? or during the entry process, or anytime pre-entry, do you think it's obvious enough how nonstandard and hard and weird and cold this swim is?

My recollection is consistent with tgarson.

tgarson wrote:

Not sure if anyone has an exact copy of the lottery registration form, but I am pretty sure there is mention of the race's difficulty in the form itself, and positive that it requests you to provide race results from recent races that indicate that you are qualified to participate.

I recall that the lottery application requires each participant to acknowledge the difficulty of the swim. I remember listing prior race results and making a written statement regarding why I was capable of completing the swim.

There were also at least four waivers, each color coded with multiple pages specifying the risks of participating.

Edit: spell check

Last edited by: GreatScott: Mar 6, 13 14:07

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 14:05

Post #120 of 154 (7543 views)

I may be biased because I live in SF, but I do think they go out of the way to inform those who sign up that the race is different. They also tell you about unloading 2000 people from the boat in 6 minutes. My wife and I have both done Alcatraz triathlons before (first Escape for both of us) and she almost bailed on the race BECAUSE she knew the risks and didn't think she was sufficiently prepared for swimming in the cold/open water.

We stocked up on neoprene swim socks and ear plugs and headed out to Aquatic Park a few extra times to make sure she was comfortable. We didn't even swim far, just paddled around for 1/2 hour to be used to the cold water. Once she felt comfortable in the bay, she decided to race. Didn't have the best swim and had to get towed up-stream, but she said at no point was she fearing for her life - just fearing an extra long run to T1 if she missed the beach.

I do have to agree with Travis that it is pretty irresponsible to attempt this race without even entering the bay. Aquatic Park was packed Saturday before the race and those people weren't training. They were practicing and preparing themselves for the water on Sunday.

One thing I will say is that on race morning, they may want to consider making it easier for people to back out if they feel unprepared/overwhelmed. I didn't see any area to go if you wanted to ride back to the pier or abandon the race. Instead the intercom was booming with "Now is not the time to be mentally weak! Get to the edge and jump. Now is not the time to be mentally weak!"

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [bmas] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 14:06

Post #121 of 154 (7543 views)

"So they are saying they recommend the race for first-time triathletes if you are in excellent physical condition."

yes, i caught that. it is breathtakingly bad text. my read, actually what they're saying is that they recommend the race even for first timers who are NOT in excellent physical condition as long as that unfit first timer is under an experienced trainer or coach. this is the one glaringly horrible phrase in what is otherwise a stellar set of preparatory videos and emails.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 14:08

Post #122 of 154 (7537 views)

all of the fellow participants I talked to during/after the race said that it wasn't the cold that surprised them, but the choppy conditions.

The tone from the race meeting and everything I read online indicated it could be a tough/rough swim.

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [Callin'] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 14:31

Post #123 of 154 (7509 views)

Callin' wrote:

all of the fellow participants I talked to during/after the race said that it wasn't the cold that surprised them, but the choppy conditions.

The tone from the race meeting and everything I read online indicated it could be a tough/rough swim.

I agree with both of those statements. I expected a tough (cold and potentially rough) swim, and that is what I got. And I found the chop to be a much larger factor than the cold.

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 14:41

Post #124 of 154 (7488 views)

Agree with this. I actually did the swim slower once with a slack tide and more swells. The chop was much more difficult to deal with mentally and physically. Being unsure if your breath was going to be water or air changes the way you swim/thrash.

I don't think the cold was a factor for those who were prepared. I'd take 50 degrees and calm over 75 degrees with the chop we had on Sunday.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Re: Escape From Alcatraz death? [guppie58] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 13 14:46

Post #125 of 154 (7477 views)

guppie58 wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"Prior to the race, I searched endlessly for useful videos, but most footage was shot from far away and last year�s water conditions appeared much calmer"

i would like to know the following, from you and anyone else who did the race. eric gilsenen has produced and narrated a fabulous set of videos over the years that show the alcatraz race. in those videos i see some pretty rough water. not appreciably less rough than the water from this past weekend. i'll concede that the water was rougher than in years past, however, the videos i have seen seem to me to display the difficulty of this race pretty well. except for the fact that 51 degrees is an expected, not anomalous, water temperature for this time of year and i don't see anywhere where this was mentioned on the website.

however, my question is this, for all who did the race: were you told in pre-race emails, or anywhere, about these excellent videos that do exist describing the race and its conditions?

As a first timer, I watched ALL the videos on the website and any I could find on YouTube. I was ready for cold rough waters. I knew I had to swim 'across the river'. Once I dove into the water, all that went out the door. The first 30 seconds of pain as my balls raced north to snuggle behind the heat of my heart. Swimming across the river would be great if I could have seen across the river. Again, all my training was in a pool (live in MI). I haven't been in open water since September. The challenging conditions I was prepared for turned out to be significantly more challenging than I was expecting. It was just more than physically challenging, it was a mental beat down. Stay calm, focus, sight, stroke, repeat. It was one hell of a mental challenge.

In hindsight, there are some things the videos don't teach/show: how spread out everybody is, what to expect when you hit the water, difficulty of sighting, etc. Much of that is explained in paper, but many things sound great on paper but not very close to real life. Another thing I wasn't prepared or under estimated was the wait on the boat. I wish they stressed nutrition during the wait better, but only because many people are new to this event. It's my own fault for not understanding it, but there were so many things going on. I sat on the boat for over 90 minutes with no nutrition. I accept responsibility for that, I was just focused on other aspects of the race.

Side note: WTF does this race have against GU gel? There was a GU booth but they didn't sell their own product. The ONLY vendor that sold GU sold the blocks, not actual gel. I didn't bring any GU from MI because every race I've ever done had GU available. I couldn't find GU gel anywhere. My Walgreens up the road in MI sells GU gel. Not the Walgreens in SF. I've been to smaller grass-roots races that have had more vendors than this race had. I could have brought stuff from my closet that I don't wear and have more products than the 'athlete village' had. I've never seen such a lack of nutrition from a race that had an international crowd. The website mentioned GU and other vendors so I figured I could buy most of my nutrition there. The GU vendor didn't sell their product. WTF? I think the website oversold the 'athlete village'. It was a joke.

Somebody above criticized those who were 'complaining'. There is a big difference between complaining and sharing feedback. Just because somebody says it was harder than expected, etc doesn't mean they are complaining. It has nothing to do with complaining, it's just sharing experience versus expectations. I have zero complaints about the swim, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to share how the swim kicked my ass. The only complaint I have was the 'athlete village'. Again, that was pretty pathetic.

1. I'm glad you brought shoes, since the athlete village probably didn't have any.
2. I'm sorry that you couldn't find any GU gel in a city of 800k.
3. I'm surprised you didn't jump into the bay the day before the event like so many do. It would have prepared you for the shock.

Now to address the larger conversation...

I had 2 ironman events under my belt, yet I was scared to death of this swim when I did it last year. My training was almost entirely swim focused. My buddy in Seattle trained in 45 degree water to prepare himself. Everyone knows the difficulty of the swim. The race directors did more to warn, prepare and teach than any other event ever has, in my personal experience.

This is a terrible tragedy and I've felt extremely sad about it, probably because he's from ATX and I did the race last year. However, I must defend the race directors, and I'm put off by guppie58's whining about goo and lack of tee shirts. Go do a R-n-R half marathon, if you want a great show at registration; and shut up about what wasn't on the videos. They were terrific.

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