That's not the conventional thought. It also will depend on what else you have scheduled after the bike (a run off the bike, a long run the following day?)

If I have a morning ride, I eat breakfast and take in 200-250 calories per hour starting a half hour to an hour into the bike. I typically have a run scheduled off the longer bike seshes.

Everyone is different. I would read a few articles about calories during ironman training and test out a few things

Good luck

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leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com

You should be practicing your race day nutrition on every long ride/run you do.

Others will have either more detail or opposing views I'm sure, but I would say that when you're starting out, the most important thing by far is preparing your muscles and oxygen delivery, including legs, heart and lungs. That's mostly a case of just getting out and riding. Yes, many people do fasted rides with the intention of improving fat burning efficiency but if that sacrifices training quality because you're insufficiently fuelled, it's almost certainly counter-productive. I usually do rides up to 2hrs, maybe 2.5hrs without food. Just water. After that I'll bring a banana, a cereal bar, or some sugary crap, whatever. Cycling along at half power because you're out of glycogen and this is your limit for fat conversion doesn't do you a whole lot of good. Even if you're constraining yourself to zone 2 (not my favourite plan either ;)) I don't think you'll enjoy long rides without fuel.

By the way I do have a normal breakfast before those 2hr rides!

I would pass out if I tried doing a 2.5hrs ride without calorie intake!

Get your hands on as many nutrition articles that you can to see the different "strategies" for fueling and start playing with them now on your long bike/run workouts. I found out that my body takes better to different drinks and supplements better than others.

Personally for me, if I haven't started some calorie intake before the 45min to 1hr mark on a long ride run session my legs are going to be toast 3.5miles into the run. Not to mention cramping sets in from the lack of electrolytes and salt.

This is entirely backwards. In zone 2 you most certainly are burning sugar for fuel (some fat yes). On your longer efforts (90+ minutes) you should be fueling at least somewhat. For long runs and long rides you absolutely should be taking in fuel at around your planned race volume. For most people that is right around 300 calories of almost all carbs per hour (you have to experiment with what works, or have some metabolic testing done).

When I head out for a 3 hour ride I will easily have 1000 calories over the course of that ride starting usually around 20 minutes in.

On race day you would hopefully have long ago planned out and practiced your fueling strategy such that you can carry and consume something like 1500-2000 calories for your bike leg of an IM (depending on how long you plan to be out riding).

I also am not entirely sure I would agree that keeping your long rides entirely in zone 2 is a great idea. But that is a different argument for a different thread.

Thanks for the replies. I must say I'm a bit surprised by noofus' response, given what I have read around the web. I must qualify a couple of things, I have been using Trainer Road exclusively. Just started the Full Distance Tri mid volume base program. Last week (week3), I did a 2.5 hour 'endurance' ride with just water. Honestly the hardest part was trying to ignore how sore my 'sitbones' were (and boredom), as I haven't biked in a long time. I did realize after, I should at least taken some salt with the water, but fortunately didn't cramp.

That said, my understanding is that one should train in "all zones" (Vo2, sweet spot, etc), BUT I thought the long rides were exclusively for, as TrainerRoad puts it, Aerobic Endurance - aimed at improving your aerobic (i.e. non-sugar) power producing capabilities in a low-stress manner. These rides are 65%-75% of FTP.

Am I just find all the wrong info out there in my internet searches?

FWIW, +1 to this

[/quote]Hi, just joined this forum.

I just started a base bike program for a full IM. Overwhelming how much info I need to 'learn', but I did have an immediate question re: nutrition for endurance rides. Everything I read says do your long rides/runs in the endurance zone (zone 2). It is aerobic and in theory you are burning your fat and not needing sugar.

That said, does that mean I don't need to drink anything but water (and salt)? I literally don't need sugar? I am asking specifically for training.

I imagine on race day, I will be sucking down a bunch of Gatorade, just because, why not sugar up if you can. Gatorade doesn't affect my stomach so I'm not concerned about getting an upset gut.
[/b]

Thanks in advance.[/quote]






To go into your IM with a plan of "sugaring up because why not" will almost certainly end in a long, painful, and maybe even messy day. Ask yourself when was the last time you swam 2.4 miles, then immediately rode 5-6 hours without stopping then decided to run/walk 26.2 miles. You will most likely need at least 2000 calories on race day just to crawl to the finish line. Nutrition is something that needs to be practiced. Most of us find that some things work and some things don't. When things don't work out, the results can become explosive. Race day is not the day I'd want to find that out. The other thing is that the training load of building to a full IM will take so much out of you that you cant afford to deplete your self due to a lack of calories. I think if you are searching the internet for ideas on training for an IM, you'd be best off staying on a site like ST rather than the internet at large. Doing an IM is not like other "exercising". It's a unique type of thing.

[quote noofus
This is entirely backwards. In zone 2 you most certainly are burning sugar for fuel (some fat yes)..[/quote]
In zone 2 you should be a bout 50% fat, 50% carbohydrates. R value is typically .85. If you are fat adapted or have done a ton of training volume, you might be 70% or more fat in zone 2.

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Simplify, Train, Live

In zone 2 you should be a bout 50% fat, 50% carbohydrates. R value is typically .85. If you are fat adapted or have done a ton of training volume, you might be 70% or more fat in zone 2.[/quote]
Interesting Mike. So since I'm a newbie, I guess I should be at the 50/50 level. So that being said, for TRAINING purposes, do you think I should restrict calories for the purpose of 'training' my body to burn the fat, as I am in base training - my target race is 6 months away? OR does the higher fat conversion just come with time/training?

I think I understand (and appreciate) the wise caveats listed in the comments above
-don't starve yourself for the sake of performance
-practice like you will race

Why are you trying to focus on "burning fat"? Are you trying to lose weight and see all this exercise you are doing for IM training as a way to do it? Weight loss and successful IM training are goals that are tend to be opposites. Your body is put under a lot of stress while training and replacing calories becomes critical to proper performance and recovery. You do yourself no favors in restricting calories.

+1

Race day you're fueling for a marathon. Training rides are for getting your body ready for race day, nutrition included. I think the general recommendation is 300-400 calories / hour on the bike.

This is terrible advice.

You should practice it. But not every weekend.

There is absolutely no logical reason to consume that many calories on a ride or run that should be well below a complete raceday effort.

I disagree, but perhaps we have different ideas on what a long ride/long run is and how often you do them; but that's on me since I didn't specify. I would say you should practice race day nutrition on every run 2+ hours and every ride that is 4+ hours. Further, your IM race day nutrition is never going to match the calorie expenditure of an IM -- you will be in a deficit. And you will be in a deficit in your training if you are doing it right as opposed to consuming "that many calories on a ride."

As you approach race day your training should be more and more specific...which means you will be riding longer and at race pace ... which in the case of an IM is typically high Z2 for mere mortals. I can't imagine training much slower. So yes, you should be practicing your race day nutrition in your IM build as much as possible. If you still disagree, please enlighten me on what I am missing and how exactly that translates to pigging out.

I'll second this.

For any workout under 90 minutes (ride or run, doesn't matter) I don't normally bother with anything other than water.

>90 and I start taking in some fuel, but not necessarily at the level of race day.

If I am going >3 hours (ride only, I never run more than 2:30 or so in training), then absolutely I will be fueling like I do on race day.

So let me make your head spin a bit more regarding nutrition....and this response won't provide answers, only factors to be aware of

You need to consider a variety of factors (one you have touched on):

Effort - how fast or slow are you going (what zone are you training and racing in)
Course conditions - what are the temperatures (what your body will tolerate in hot temperatures can be very different vs. cold temperatures)
Duration - you're talking IM distance...shorter races could likely be very different
Rate of Calories consumed - how many calories can your body take in per hour comfortably without causing GI distress
There's also electrolyte replenishment to consider.

As others have said, you need to use your training (long training days that replicate race effort, conditions if possible) to find out what works for you and what doesn't.

It took years for me to dial in the nutrition that worked for me. I found small amounts of "snacking" every 15 minutes rather than larger blocks of food intake every 45-60 minutes worked better. More calories on the bike and less on the run helped me master running the marathon (along with improved bike fitness and bike pacing).

The best part in all of this is you have an incredible adventure ahead of you...both in the training ahead and the race. Enjoy that journey!

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Tad

It took awhile, but I finally discovered that its not the destination that's important, but rather the journey.

Raceday for me constitutes a gel on the hour while drinking a bidon of tailwind every hour. My training this weekend calls for a 7 hour ride all aerobic with a lot of climbing. I'm 14 weeks out. So should I be practicing my raceday nutrition or just taking on what I need.

Raceday is where you take your performance to the next level. As such you fuel to take it to the next level.

A session where I would practice raceday nutrition is 150k ride with the last 2 hours at race power. Then a 15k run off at ironman racepace. This isn't something you would do every weekend but maybe once every 4-6 weeks to check how your gut reacts to the food you have been taking on while riding.

It's very rare people get sick while riding but to get sick while running cause of what you ate while riding is very common. So I see it as pointless to practice the raceday nutrition unless you're doing what you would do on raceday.

I've got a 28k run this weekend. I won't have any gels while doing that but in raceday (Ironman) ill have a gel every 8k. Again I don't see the point in fueling for this run the same as on raceday cause its not anything like raceday it's just a training run.

Key sessions are where I like to practice nutrition cause, like you say, they are specific to the event you're practicing for.

Lots of conflicting advice because everyone's n=1 is different. You need to find what works best for your situation. I would advise you not to completely jump into to fat adapted workouts full force. It is something that you need to make a part of your everyday life. And build the workouts up slowly. Otherwise, you will put serious stress on your body and certainly sacrifice performance. It takes a good 5-6 weeks of that kind of diet to really see a change and get your body to burn the fat versus carbs. But if done right, it can help you out a bunch come race day. For those of of who have trouble digesting calories during a race, I will tell you it's much easier if I only take on 400 calories for a 5 hour bike ride than 1500. Again, not for everyone but I like to think that my diet sets me up for healthy life as well as training. I am not saying no carbs, just lower and well time. Also, I am not going to tell somebody who eats a ton of carbs for fuel that they are wrong. It might work well for their situation.

Good question. I'm not trying to lose weight, just trying to 'train' my body to more easily use fat as an energy source, which in 'theroy' is unlimited versus having to depend on gatorade/gu.

I agree. During an IM, you are fueling for a 26 mile run while on the bike and there is no need to do this on a regular basis.

Steve,
This may sound stupid, but I didn't about actually changing my diet to low-carb, just my long training (bike) sessions. I really enjoy my carbs!

I just finished a 2.5hr ride on the trainer with water and salt. Stayed in the endurance zone the whole time (65%-75%FTP and 68%-83%LTHR). HR definitely went up by avg of 10bpm around 2hr mark. Given the advice provided, for the 3hr+ endurance rides, I will supplement with some gatorade/gu. With the long,long rides 4.5+, I'll practice gameday nutrition.

Thanks for your guidance!

As a newbie in this world, err on the side of having too much with you on a ride or run. The chances of successful long rides and runs actually in Zone 2 and not over doing it come with loads of practice. As you get better at pacing and more and more fit, you will probably find that cramming yourself full of calories on every single training session is just not needed. Until then, bonking on a long ride is no fun.

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Ian

Really. You are eating enough calories on the bike to make up for the swim, cover the caloric needs of the bike, AND store up for a 26 mile run. Just wow!!

Doesn't sound stupid. You won't be as metabolically efficient. But will still help you to lower you need for fuel on your long workouts. I would read up on MAF (maximum aerobic function). That is the optimal HR at which you would burn the most fat. generally 180-age, but with some adjustments for fitness or issues. This is different than than aerobic threshold or crossover point, where you start burning more glucose than fat.

Good luck and happy training.