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Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater
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I raced pro at Clearwater and was disgusted by what I saw. I have been trying to get my race report on websites since the race but so far no-one seems interested. So I apologise if posting it on the forum seems like sniping behind people's backs but I feel this needs to get out there and the sooner the better.

The full race report is on www.tritom.co.uk but I have pulled this most potent points out;

At 10 miles I was getting pretty cross. The cones on the course was spaced 9m aparts (to coincide with the road markings) so it is pretty obvious when riders are spaced less than 9m, let alone 10m. I implored the photographers on the motorbikes to take shots of the riders ahead. He sympathised and said he would try but I think we both sensed the futility of the situation.

By mile 15 a referee finally appears and I suggest he should card every rider ahead. At this point I counted 16 riders within 10 cones distances, or 16 riders within 90m. I was confident justice would be served. As the penalty tent approached I expected the whole group to file into it and serve their 4min penalty. Alas, all but one of the riders continued on their way.

I couldn't believe it. I was outraged.

In case you don't know, a legal 10m gap still brings about a slipstream effect, but it is legal. I could tell by the splits and my own effort levels I was riding faster than I ought to be, and after seeing the impotence of the referees I wanted no further part in the race.

I coasted for 50m and decided to just race myself for a time. The group (not pace line) rode in with a bike split of 2hrs3mins which I know I would not be capable of riding, my split was 2hr8mins - but it was MY split. Further evidence can be found by looking in more details at the splits. Massimo Cigana, former pro cyclist, was made to look slow. He takes apart pro 70.3 races on the bike, was out split by over 20 athletes and crossed the line with a 2hr1min16sec bike. Athletes who I put 5mins into on 70.3 courses are now out splitting me by 5mins?!

Implications

The 70.3 Ironman World Championships is a draft legal event. I will endeavour to find out how many pros picked up a drafting penalty, I suspect fewer than 5. Whilst it is easy to suggest I am bitter about my result (I am) there is more evidence for drafting than my hear say;

Results are wildly inconsistant with peoples previous performances
The quickest swimmers stayed at the front for the whole bike
Bike specialists (Galindez, Cigana) were made to look weak
Conspicious absense of people visiting the penalty tent
Pro girls jumping on the back of the pro guys pace lines
Photographic evidence......anyone???

The referees were incapable of enforcing the rules; for fear of rocking the boat, for fear of not having a big enough penalty tent, for fear of damaging the reputation of the sport??

As an aspiring Pro triathlete (still working, not sponsored, not funded) it already has been damaged. I happily make the choice to pursue the pro triathlete dream but there are certain things I am not willing to comprimise on, the rules. Just coming to Clearwater is a cost of 800GBP of my own money, it is not something to undertake lightly. And this does not take into account loss of earnings whilst I am away. The pro prize money is not sufficient to support athletes other than the worlds best, 8th in the World wouldn't have covered my costs, but when you are not competing on a fair playing field the whole concept of the professional triathlete is a complete joke.

I now have to go home and try and sell myself for what little sponsorship opportunities there are in England with a weak World Championship result. After failing to gain any sponsorship on the back of last years placement of 37th Pro, I am not optimistic that 48th Pro this year will lead me to be overwhelmed with offers.

Improvements

Aware that all I have done is whine for the last however long, I thought it worth mentioning that 70,3 can be saved, but in my eyes at least, only with fundamental changes...

Time Trial Format - A mass start permits drafting in the swim, if Ironman events are going to be a true race against the clock, drafting should not be allowed in the swim either. I suggest releasing the pros at 1, preferable 2min intervals. This should massively reduce bunching on the bike. If pro cycling can enforce the rules on this format hopefully triathlon can too? Potential drawbacks include racing at different times of the day, not knowing who is in the lead....but cycling manages it. But most importantly, the race will be an all out individual race against the clock, which is what Ironman is meant to be.

Photographers - Surely the best placed people to gather irrefutable evidence of drafting are the race photographers? Hire more of them. They have the cones as a reference point for distance and no one can argue with photographic evidence.

Jack Bauer - Put him in a race helicopter with a sniper rifle

Bottom Line

70.3 Ironman World Champs is a draft legal race, and right now, I have no desire to race a Pro World Championship under such conditions

Head referree Jimmy Riccitello goes as far to confirm what I say in an interview he did for slowtwitch last year, "When draft marshals are not present, (most) athletes will cheat. It only takes a couple of blatantly drafting athletes to turn a perfectly clean group of riders into a "pack" of riders who are too close."

Another athlete who shares my sentiments and whose blog I recommed you read if Greg Remaly http://gregremaly.blogspot.com/2009/11/703-draft-legal-world-championships.html

Surely the race has to change??

http://www.tritom.co.uk
Pro Triathlete
Last edited by: tomroom: Nov 24, 09 14:56
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [tomroom] [ In reply to ]
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As an age group athlete, I'm glad that I don't have to rely on a race like this one to try and raise my profile for sponsors. After reading Dev's report about the age group women riding ultra fast bike splits I went on the results and checked some of the times. When you pull up the same name on the sportstats database and see bike times 30+ minutes faster than on any other race they have recorded (at least the races that sportstats timed) it tells you all you need to know. I don't care how fast the course is, 30 minute improvements and 2:15 range bike splits (which seemed commonplace) sure makes the race look like a joke for age group women. I can just imagine how it was when there is cash on the line. I figure that a really flat, fast course on a good day might give you 8 -12 minutes over a tough course (IMFL vs. IMLP about 15-20 minutes so half of that for a 90k ride?) but the time improvements were amazing.
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [tomroom] [ In reply to ]
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So, is this another "Everyone that does Clearwater is a cheating drafter, except for me" admonishment?
Everyone seems to be complaining about the drafting, yet no one admits to doing it. No one.

Drafting occurs in every race. All of them. You can see it in every race from Hawaii to Clearwater. Some more, some less. Get over it. You can't just sit back and blame the venue. Florida, Texas, Arizona, the subtropics, and now the middle east are great race destinations. There has always been high profile races in most of these regions and there always will be. ALWAYS will be.

If you watch ANY sporting event, there are rule infractions that occur without being seen by officials. If the ref doesn't throw the flag, there effectively is no infraction. As a pro, its up to you to learn how to compete in that environment. Its up to you to balance the potential of penalty versus time savings of riding in a draft or near draft. If rule enforcement was effective by using the honor system, we would not need race officials. But, all sports have officials. What happens outside of what the official sees is not an infraction. That's something that is hard for people to accept. Its true in football, soccer, tennis, etc. Stop trying to find blame somewhere else. Adapt, adjust. But stop blaming venues that will surely be around for decades to come.
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [bshanberg] [ In reply to ]
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Everyone knows it is frustrating to see drafting going on, especially when you are making a very conscious effort to not draft. I've never ridden at the pro level (and never will), but wonder if there is a difference in the number of refs on the course. I'm normally in the top 10-20% in my age group and it seems there is typically only 1-2 refs on the course and I see them just a handful of times on the course. I know it adds to the cost of running a race, but it may be nice to have more refs. On such a long course, it's impossible to see everything. It's very likely someone could wear a mirror to look behind them and only not draft when they saw the refs coming from behind. This would be only for a small portion of the ride. As an age grouper, I always do my best to not draft b/c I'm only racing against myself. Anytime there is money involved, people will do whatever possible to get the slight edge.
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [bshanberg] [ In reply to ]
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"Adapt, adjust" - what do you mean by that? I hope you are not suggesting that everyone start drafting. There is already a version of the sport with those rules - ITU. I am not interested in doing that sport.
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [bshanberg] [ In reply to ]
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Bingo
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [bshanberg] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
So, is this another "Everyone that does Clearwater is a cheating drafter, except for me" admonishment?
Everyone seems to be complaining about the drafting, yet no one admits to doing it. No one.

Drafting occurs in every race. All of them. You can see it in every race from Hawaii to Clearwater. Some more, some less. Get over it. You can't just sit back and blame the venue. Florida, Texas, Arizona, the subtropics, and now the middle east are great race destinations. There has always been high profile races in most of these regions and there always will be. ALWAYS will be.

If you watch ANY sporting event, there are rule infractions that occur without being seen by officials. If the ref doesn't throw the flag, there effectively is no infraction. As a pro, its up to you to learn how to compete in that environment. Its up to you to balance the potential of penalty versus time savings of riding in a draft or near draft. If rule enforcement was effective by using the honor system, we would not need race officials. But, all sports have officials. What happens outside of what the official sees is not an infraction. That's something that is hard for people to accept. Its true in football, soccer, tennis, etc. Stop trying to find blame somewhere else. Adapt, adjust. But stop blaming venues that will surely be around for decades to come.

By 'adapting and adjusting' do you mean just go ahead and draft? I'm not sure how you adapt and adjust to drafting.....you either do.....or you don't.

ITU offers an 'adapt and adjust' format...of that I'm certain.

If I'm missing something please feel free to expound on 'adapt and adjust', but that is what I gleaned from the statement....
Last edited by: ride2eat: Nov 22, 09 7:54
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [bshanberg] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
So, is this another "Everyone that does Clearwater is a cheating drafter, except for me" admonishment?
Everyone seems to be complaining about the drafting, yet no one admits to doing it. No one.

Drafting occurs in every race. All of them. You can see it in every race from Hawaii to Clearwater. Some more, some less. Get over it. You can't just sit back and blame the venue. Florida, Texas, Arizona, the subtropics, and now the middle east are great race destinations. There has always been high profile races in most of these regions and there always will be. ALWAYS will be.

If you watch ANY sporting event, there are rule infractions that occur without being seen by officials. If the ref doesn't throw the flag, there effectively is no infraction. As a pro, its up to you to learn how to compete in that environment. Its up to you to balance the potential of penalty versus time savings of riding in a draft or near draft. If rule enforcement was effective by using the honor system, we would not need race officials. But, all sports have officials. What happens outside of what the official sees is not an infraction. That's something that is hard for people to accept. Its true in football, soccer, tennis, etc. Stop trying to find blame somewhere else. Adapt, adjust. But stop blaming venues that will surely be around for decades to come.


I don't think you are going to ever see the drafters 'coming out' on this forum or any other. What do you expect, people to come on line and admit they did it and say you're stupid for not joining in? "Hey, dude, everybody is doing it, what difference does it make?" "If they don't catch you, you're not cheating!" "I am not going to make it to the podium and neither are the other guys I am riding with, so what does it matter?" "Everybody has been drafting this race forever, so it's OK!"

Oh wait, just a second, I JUST READ one of those posts. Maybe the drafters ARE coming out...

Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [bshanberg] [ In reply to ]
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In reply to - If you watch ANY sporting event, there are rule infractions that occur without being seen by officials. If the ref doesn't throw the flag, there effectively is no infraction. As a pro, its up to you to learn how to compete in that environment. Its up to you to balance the potential of penalty versus time savings of riding in a draft or near draft. If rule enforcement was effective by using the honor system, we would not need race officials. But, all sports have officials. What happens outside of what the official sees is not an infraction. That's something that is hard for people to accept. Its true in football, soccer, tennis, etc. Stop trying to find blame somewhere else. Adapt, adjust. But stop blaming venues that will surely be around for decades to come.


Finally, i have though this for years. In football, you see punters fake being knocked to the ground all the time in an effort to draw a penalty when it's clear there was no contact. In basketball, players intentionally foul all the time. It's called strategy. If an official doesn't call it, it ain't drafting.
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [imsparticus] [ In reply to ]
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If an official doesn't call it, it ain't drafting.


And if someone takes epo and doesen't get caught it's not doping, right?

While I wish the rules could actually be enforced 100% of the time I'm still not impressed with people blatantly cheating as soon as someone looks the other way.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
Last edited by: bjorn: Nov 22, 09 12:22
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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First off, I have tremendous respect for you and I am honored that you would even respond to one of my silly posts.

I respectfully submit, however, that you are asking the WRONG question. If someone takes EPO and doesn't get caught, he has, of course, still taken EPO, it's just that it hasn't been proven and he hasn't been caught. If someone takes EPO, wins a race and doesn't get caught, he is declared the winner and we accept him as such. Once they test positive, everything they have ever accomplished is tainted, but until then their achievements count. There are many athletes who folks suspect of doping, but until they fail a drug test, their results count. Doping is cheating and foolish. No sport is worth the potential health risks.

But there is a big difference between doping and drafting. All sports that I know of suspend or punish an athlete who dopes and is caught. Think Ben Johnson. Doping is so outside the rules that the punishment for doping can sometimes be a lifetime ban. Drafting is different. The penalty for drafting isn't a two year ban, it's a time penalty. Knowing that, an athlete may decide to run the risk of a penalty and follow a little closer than a draft marshall may think is legal. If someone drafts and wins, they are the winner. This is true weather their "drafting" goes undetected or they win despite serving a time penalty.
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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Bjorn and tritom. I have a conf call scheduled with WTC tomorrow to discuss how the age group event can be improved and the playing field levelled. As Allan pointed out there are age group women riding faster than Michellie Jones. That's a joke....she just won Kona 3 years ago...she's not that slow on the bike.

For those of you who did not see my letter to WTC, I have pasted it below

I can't comment on the pro race, cause I never saw it. I do think that the ocean swim would have helped things a lot. I think you pros have to collectively talk to WTC, but I think Tritom's idea of a TT start would help things A LOT.

My idea is that WTC could actually offer 2 medals for you guys....a supersprint prologue and the IM 70.3. Prologue: start 1 min apart, big party in town on Thu nite say 400m/4000/1600m which would take you guys 15 minutes, 5 min per sport. then a TT start on Saturday morning in the reverse order of prologue finish, at 10 second intervals. Now suddenly we all have some fun on Thu nite on a close circuit in town and then on Saturday morning we have the main event with things broken up a bit. I think if the pros also raced at 1 pm, we could have 10x9K course that went out and back over the bridge (20 climbs) with some sharp turns through town to potentially break things up, plus you'd have 1500 age groupers and fans to watch and cheer the pro event. All of this is simply my input as a fan, but I think it would be much better than what is there today. I don't imagine that 15 minutes of going hard on Thu evening will kill any prep, but I'm not a pro and don't know what you guys do.

Alternatively, no prologue and start order based on year to day 70.3 series "points".


Please keep in mind that the scope of my conf call is how to improve the age group race, so what you see above, is just one fan's idea.



---------------------------------------

Dear World Triathlon Corporation,

First of all, thank you for putting on the Championship event of your 70.3 Ironman Series in Clearwater Florida on Nov 14th. I started my participation in triathlon 25 seasons ago, and have raced every one of the triathlon seasons since. Over the time, I’ve done 18 Ironman events including Kona, countless half Ironman events, the ITU Age Group World Championships and the World Military Games Triathlon. Let’s just say, I’ve seen every part of this sport now on 4 different continents at the age group level. It was exciting to close off my 25th year at your event in Clearwater.

When I first qualified at Timberman, (which was a fabulous event with flawless execution put on by Keith Jordan in New Guilford New Hampshire), I decided that I would race Clearwater. It was the third time I qualified in the past 4 years and decided this was the time to do it. A great way to close season 25. I talked with your original 70.3 World Champion runner-up Simon Lessing, who responded to me, “I guess you’re going to find out what ITU racing is like and do your first age group ITU race”. I replied, “Well, Simon, it is part of the sport. I want to go down, see what it is all about and race clean and in the rules, just to prove that you don’t need to be part of the packs”.

As I talked to more and more athletes, many being elite age groupers, they said, “why are you wasting all that training time and money going to compete in that draft fest?”. This is not something that people would say of Kona. People literally put their lives on hold for Kona, quit or change jobs, mortgage their homes, and transform their lives in an effort to qualify for Kona.

My personal journey to Kona qualification took me 14 years. While I never put my life “on hold” to make it to Kona, having that carrot transformed my life over a period that spanned greater than a decade. My story is not much different than thousands of age groupers worldwide. Kona is a lifetime dream. Currently Clearwater is not. In fact, the very presence of an athlete going to Clearwater almost brands that athlete as someone who goes to an event to cheat their way to the finish line.

This is simply not right.

My main event is the half Ironman distance. I love it for all the reasons why your 70.3 series is hugely successful. Half Ironman is a distance for real people with jobs, families and commitments outside of sport. We can race the half Ironman distance from wire to wire without having to go into survival mode. We don’t need to spend so much time training for this event that it detracts from our lives. In fact the training for a half Ironman is almost additive to success in other parts of life. You are fit, but have more energy to devote to work and family. It does not take every morning, lunch hour and evening and also two half days on weekends. AWESOME.

So where am I going with this?

I want Clearwater to be a hugely successful event like Kona. I came to Clearwater to be part of the solution.

I can’t comment on a race I have never done. Having raced for a quarter century, I needed to know what goes on during the second weekend in November by the Gulf of Mexico. I’ve seen the good, bad and ugly of the sport over 25 years. Thankfully most of it is not just good, but simply outstanding, or I would not be part of this sport. And I should say that the WTC does way more things right than it does wrong.

The Clearwater location is simply spectacular. While the rest of North America, Japan, Korea and Europe go into winter hibernation, and while New Zealand and Australia and South Africa just move towards their spring and summer season, Florida in November is just perfect for racing. There is a ton of great accommodation near the race site and the beaches are to die for.

Your execution of race logistics are impeccable as I have grown to expect having done Ironman Lake Placid 10 times, Ironman Canada 6 times, Ironman Europe once and Hawaii once. I’m in business and I completely understand the various aspects of customer service and marketing. Hats off on a fabulous job! In fact, Harvard or Stanford could do a good case study on how you have successfully transformed a small event with a niche following on an island in Hawaii into a global marketing and business machine. More power to you.

So let’s come back to Clearwater and how it is perceived as a “Championship Event”.

As athletes and competitors, we want our champions to be legit. When I see MANY age group women riding faster than Michellie Jones and Magali Tisseyre and within 2 minutes of a World ITT Champion and multiple-time Olympic medalist like Karin Thurig of Switzerland we all know that there is something fishy going on out there.

60 year old women riding sub 2:30. That should take around 210 watts for most smaller athletes. Again, something fishy going on. Age Group men riding faster than Tim O’Donnel an ITU World Champ? Age Group men running faster than Terenzo Bozzone your champion from last year?

On Saturday I was buoyed by the announcement of a time trial start expecting a big separation of athletes on the course. GREAT, a fair race. I was excited that we’d all go home on Sunday and talk about the “success of Clearwater”….everyone was spaced apart and we got to race clean. The champions were worthy. Race times were in line with what you’d expect from age groupers. Finally people would see a clean race at Clearwater, and next year, everyone is going to fighting tooth and nail at qualifier races to get slots just like they do for Kona slots

I was athlete 1241. My original wave time was 7:45. Instead I entered the water at around 7:20 am. You just compressed double the density of athletes on the course from the previous wave spacing. I knew that the course would be EVEN MORE CROWDED than in previous years.

The race has passed and we all know the final outcome. The packs were larger than ever. I told myself that I wanted to do this race clean. I had a power meter and every time a rider passed me I dropped back 5 lengths as I should. When packs of 20-50 passed me, I dropped back 5 lengths, yet my power meter read less than 125 Watts when I first started to pedal, when my usual half Ironman effort is 220-240Watts. I needed to let the packs go in excess of 10 bike lengths before pedaling again and do a proper half Ironman pace of at least 220W. The rules say 5 lengths, but at 5 lengths back I’m still benefiting hugely from the pack. This makes me part of the problem, not part of the solution. So I dropped even further back till I was doing a legitimate effort.

Locks are there to keep the honest people honest. Thieves will always break locks, but honest people won’t. I truly believe that most of my fellow competitors are by and large honest guys and gals who wanted to “do the right thing”. But at the same time, all these guys train hard and if someone is getting away with stealing their lunch , they will resort to the same degradation of civility to level the playing field.

Of course, we know how this has played out in pro cycling. Everyone doped because they suspected the other guy was doping. But does that make it right? Ask David Millar how he is so opposed to doping after using the juice to try to win the Tour De France for Cofidis. Just because everyone is doing it does not make it right. If someone is cheating on their spouse it is not right for the next guy to copy this behavior either.

So how do we keep our honest competitors honest? How do we raise the prestige of the event and help market it as a true championship ? How do we get people to literally transform their lives to get a ticket to Clearwater like they do for Kona?

As I said, locks keep the honest people honest. What is the magic lock that will keep all of us playing in the rules. Do we need more marshalling? Frankly when age groupers say this is the solution, it is a cop out. Cheating is a personal choice. It’s what a person does when no one is looking that tells mountains about their integrity.

Let’s make it easier for athletes to keep their integrity.

We simply need a lower density of riders on the course. You can’t have drafting and packs form if there are less riders on a given patch of course at a time. You’re already breaking the larger age groups into 2 waves. Let’s go with waves of only 50 people at a time separated by 5 minutes. Or a true time trial start with one athlete only every 5 second.

Drafting is a bigger scourge to our sport at the age group level than any amount of performance that EPO, HGH or Steroids can deliver. While I applaud your efforts on the drug testing front, I believe the focus in that domain is misplaced given the fact that courses where drafting may be a problem are not properly dealt on the front of rider density.

I feel for Jimmy Ritticello who, given the working conditions he has been dealt with, does the best job he can. Jimmy has an almost impossible job. He’s almost being asked to make a chicken fly across the Atlantic when the bird has no wings.

I really do believe that an opportunity to deliver an event in Clearwater with much lower rider density was squandered when the time trial start at Clearwater 2009 effectively compressed the age goupers into twice the density. A spacing of 5-6 seconds between riders would have changed the entire make up for the course. You would not have seen age group women out biking pro women or age group men outrunning pro men after sitting in pelotons all day. These age group champions put the integrity of the sport into question.

I understand that Clearwater is going to be a fast course, with few hills, smooth pavement and a draft from traffic in the lane beside riders. All that adds up to fast times. But let’s clean the packs up so that Clearwater steps up to the stage with the same prestige as Kona. When that happens, the rest of the series will become even more successful, and no double will drive up the market capitalization of the World Triathlon Corporation making Providence Equity Partners very happy. In the process, we, your customers will value your product with a higher valuation than we do today.

Let’s remember that every Kona slot has a pyramid of underlying revenue associated with it. There is the valuation of those slots sold to qualifier events, and then there is the money that thousands of athletes spend on race related travel, merchandise, hotel nights, expenses in local communities, purchases with sponsors and general expenses in local communities that spin from the desire to capture one of those Championship slots.

Clearwater can be the same. The rest is up to you. If you build it…we will come. There were only 1300 or so in Clearwater. That tells me there is a problem. Athletes just don’t want to come and race here. Personally I look forward to coming back in 2010 as a 45-49 age grouper, hopefully with a shot at racing cleanly against my peers and having the race of my life. I will be encouraging others to do the same. “Boycotting Clearwater” is not part of the solution. We need more athletes with high integrity to overrun the event while you, the WTC give us a fair playing field.

Sincerely

Devashish Paul

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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [imsparticus] [ In reply to ]
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Both doping and drafting is similar in that they can both save you many minutes in a race and completely change the outcome of it. I don't really care about the semantics regarding the enforcement of the different rules because it doesen't change the overriding question here which is if it's ok to cheat as long as you don't get caught. Where do we draw the line with this? What if I was first into T2 and without being caught managed to discard my closest competitors running shoes before he got there? I mean I'd just be playing the game, right? I'd never do something like that of course and it's an absurd example perhaps mostly becuase there is, or at least I thought there was, such a thing as sportmanship and morals. When it comes to drafting all signs of sportmanship and moral is thrown out of the window it seems though.. I'm no saint either but I just can't understand why people compete only to blatantly disregard the rules of the competition.

For the pros I really hope they start to enforce the rules better because it's certainly possible to have a clean race at the front with stricter marshalling.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [tomroom] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, by the way, I was in Bath UK last year on business. Really nice spot for training from what I saw. Except someone should have told me that it was a 2 mile run up 15-20% grade to get to the track at Bath University from my hotel downtown by the railway station!
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think the prologue and TT start is a great idea but I'm not sure WTC would ever go for something like that. I'm personally not much for too many loops or crit type courses for tt style bike legs though as it tends to bunch things up more for that kind of of riding. Tight corners and turns are good for a road race or itu style drafting as attacking is easier on that type of course since you can get out of sight plus fewer guys can sometimes manuvere through a course like that a bit easier than a big group. In time trialling longer stretches of open roads tends to work a bit better imo.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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Bjorn....your comments are fair. My view is from the perspective of a fair race and also being a fan. Right now the race is not that great for both pro racers and for fans.

If you had a pro race after most of the age groupers are done, you'd have a packed circuit and if you guys went up and down highway 60 over the causeway, around the island in town and back with a few hard left turns on the mainland side, you'd pretty well have 4.5K each way. I don't think that course would be hypertechnical, but 2 hard left turns per loop (the second one followed immediately with an uphill up the bridge, and there may be hope to get away. The atmosphere around the traffic island by transition would be pretty "electric". Just 2 cents.
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Guys I raced Clearwater for the first time this year I enjoyed it but all of the drafting had me disappointed as well. I lead the age group bike until mile 45 or so and watched as these huge groups of riders went by the other direction. They even came into T2 in groups according to spectators. I know here is another guy saying he was not drafting, but I started at 7:05 and am a decent swimmer, check my results if you want. Anyway we all know the problem, the reason was simple this time, time trial start had everyone in the water by 7:20 or so, when waves were scheduled until 7:45. I think an ocean swim would have spaced out the athletes better, but I also think that the waves should be even smaller and spaced out even more next year. The issue the race director runs into then is more people on the course longer, which equals more money. But the bottom line is this must happen to create a fair race for all. As for the pros they need to take it upon themselves and the officials need to do their job. Your not ever going to get a time trial start with the pros, it would ruin the spectator aspect.
I plan to write a letter as well to the WTC and Clearwater race directors.

Gavin
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [GavinAnderson] [ In reply to ]
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"...Your not ever going to get a time trial start with the pros, it would ruin the spectator aspect.."


Gavin....excuse me, but what exact spectator aspect are you speaking of in the pro race? There are no spectators on the course, once you are 1 mile out from Clearwater beach. Whether the pros race TT or mass start, does not change the spectator aspect of the event. If we're talking TV, TT's on TV with split times in a variety of sports like cycling and XC skiing tend to be much more interesting than watching a mass of guys go around in circles waiting for a sprint finish.

Dev
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree people want to see a head to head race with the pros, most people don't even understand a time trial start. I do agree it would make it fair, but also again at the cost of more time to start everyone. It would be funny thought to watch the pros finish and wait to see who wins.

And there were many people throughout the entire course cheering it was great.

Gavin
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [GavinAnderson] [ In reply to ]
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I'd guess that the people out cheering on the course, generally have no clue who they are cheering for. The age groupers are sufficient to entertain them.

Seriously, have you ever watched a TT with a big scoreboard/jumbotron at the finish line like in cycling, XC skiing, downhill skiing? It's actually pretty exciting and the anticipation is real with the leadeboard being shuffled in real time as racers cross the line. Also you can give racers a number that signifies their actual start time (000, 010, 020, 030) so if you pass someone on the course you can just subtract numbers and you know where you are relative to them in seconds

Starting 60 pros 10 seconds apart takes all of 10 extra minutes....no impact on road closures....and if you're going to go to TT start, just invite 30 guys and gals based on series points to date/former winners.

If an archaic, tradition laden sport like XC skiing can add mass start, sprint, and skiathlon to its olympic programs, not to mention adding in complete new techniques less than 20 years ago, a young sport like triathlon can experiment with some new stuff. Keeping the sport stuck in tradition in the face of an event/events that do not yield a fair winner is absurd.

Dev
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Nov 22, 09 18:25
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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It would be cool to see a pro race with a time trial start, but I am not sure a race director would do it. But it would sure make it fair.

Gavin
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [tomroom] [ In reply to ]
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Nice reports by both Tom and Greg. Clearwater 2008 was bad enough to keep me from ever considering coming back in '09. After seeing that many of our peers go <2:00 on the bike, I couldn't help but smile (in disgust) as I could imagine the 5m spacing between the riders in the lead groups. In '08 I saved ~30-50 Watts at my best guess of 10-12m (when I wasn't pulling). I can only imagine what it must have been like to average 28+mph at IM watts this year.
My 2008 time of 3:56:__ was a PR at the time but still nothing to write home about as the time was still artificially fast. For now (until something significant changes), my plan is to race the toughest bike courses possible to force wheel-suckers to at least suffer (rather than sit up) while sitting in (whether at 10m or <10m).

I know WTC is against the stagger rule, as are many other pro racers, but I feel like staggering could be a legitimate solution to the problem, in addition to possibly increasing the draft zone to 20+m, making drafting a 10-minute penalty or auto DQ, etc.

IMO, our current system of bike course marshals, current drafting rules, bike course difficulty, and athletes' regard for the rules are NOT working to produce a fair race.
The following are more or less out of our control:
The # of bike course marshals probably won't change and even if it did increase, would not likely have an overall effect on drafting, as it's not being enforced anyway.
The bike course difficulty is limited by race location's terrain
Athletes will always get away with what the marshals allow (esp. with $$ on the line), which is <7m, when the rule is 10m .

The current drafting rules are not severe enough for athletes to respect them.

Assuming WTC will never consider a pro TT start, what do you think is the best solution in terms of rule change for the Pro race?
1. Extend the drafting zone?
Currently, the Draft zone is followed more or less like the speed limit. Driving in light to moderate traffic, there is ~99% chance you won't get pulled over for doing 0-10 mph OVER the speed limit, but you are more likely to get pulled over doing 10-20mph over, and almost guaranteed to get pulled over for doing 20+mph over the limit. Now add heavy traffic and only the worst offenders doing 20+mph over the limit run the risk of getting pulled over, while the rest of traffic (critical mass) is already doing 10-15 mph over the limit and is more or less safe against getting caught speeding.
What if we extend the draft zone to 20 meters? It seems this would have the effect of marshals actually enforcing a draft zone of ~10m which is what the current goal is. In terms of energy/power savings, the difference between drafting @ 10m and 20m is MUCH LESS than the difference between drafting at 3m and 10m. If we could be guaranteed no less than a 10m draft zone (by adopting a 20m draft zone into the rule books), our races would be much more fair.

2. Increase the severity of a drafting penalty to >4 min or auto DQ?
I think Pros would ride differently knowing that by riding at 7m they are flirting with DQ rather than a petty 4 minute penalty. Most of the guys going <2:00 at Clearwater do not even have the ability to ride 2:04 (2:00 + 4-min penalty) on that course by themselves, let alone 1:59. (Add in the fact that one of the few guys that has the talent to ride that fast, Tim O'Donnell, gets called for drafting...........go figure)

3. Adopt an altered or original stagger rule?
Races like Wildflower (which has plenty of flat/rolling sections in addition to some monster climbs) also draw an amazingly competitive field (not far off from a world-championship type field), yet I've never heard of there being any drafting issues in the Pro field.

Other Pros reading, what are your thoughts?

Kirk and Charity
IBB Cyclery & Multisport - Fitting and Custom Spec Build Experts
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [merletris] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you assume that a pro TT start would never fly? Is it cause other pros won't want it, or the organizers won't want it?

WRT to penalty, we need stop and go (no time....just stop) on the road AND penalty laps outside T2 (1 mile first infraction, 2 miles second....) (well, at least for age groupers, but I am sure many pros would favour that too....).
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [merletris] [ In reply to ]
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DQ for first drafting call is an interesting thought, but it'e unlikely to work. How many officials are going to be willing to make a drafting call, if that one call eliminates someone from the race? It would have to be a REALLY blatent drafting situation to get called.
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Re: Drafting in the Pro race at Clearwater [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Why do you assume that a pro TT start would never fly? Is it cause other pros won't want it, or the organizers won't want it?

WRT to penalty, we need stop and go (no time....just stop) on the road AND penalty laps outside T2 (1 mile first infraction, 2 miles second....) (well, at least for age groupers, but I am sure many pros would favour that too....).


I think for a TT start to work, it'd have to be 1-2 minutes between starts, not seconds, as this would still lend itself to drafting.
I actually like the TT idea but would require these things (maybe more, maybe less) for it to work as a spectator friendly, pro race (some of these you may have mentioned above):
1. regular split updates (time checks) throughout the course as in +/- from the best timecheck through that point as well as current ranking. With chip-timing this would be easy -- you could have timing mats and split monitors throughout the course to update the athletes with their current position (I think you referred to this in a previous post.)
2a. "slowest" or least-favored athletes start first, "fastest" or most-favored athletes start last, to increase the anticipation and excitement
OR
2b. completely random start order so nobody has a clear advantage or disadvantage by starting closer to a faster cyclist they can they follow at a legal distance
3. spacing of at least 30 seconds and preferably 1-2 minutes between athletes
4. "Leaderboard" monitors placed throughout the race course for spectators and racers to view. makes it exciting for spectators, and allows racers to race more strategically.
(5. to make things even more exciting, you could have a "virtual" leaderboard that uses a racer's current pace through each run checkpoint to calculate their projected finish time)


Cons for spectators/RDs:
1. who's really winning? Several Leaderboard TV monitors spaced throughout the course would overcome this
2. eliminates strategic race surges which can be exciting to watch, and also eliminates the meaningfulness of a pass.

Cons for racers:
1. It prevents a racer from going just fast enough to maintain their current position or lead in a race. sometimes it's nice to conserve for the next race!
2. eliminates strategical race surges, which can be key to moving up in a competitive race field

Unless i'm overlooking some really important items, I like the Pro TT start idea more and more........

re: penalties. How would you enforce a 1-mile penalty lap system on the run? set up a different section of the run course with timing mat? i can see it working, but it seems like an arbitrary disciplinary action for something that happened on the bike. why not do stop-and-go + 3 miles of extra cycling?

Kirk and Charity
IBB Cyclery & Multisport - Fitting and Custom Spec Build Experts
Brands: Argon 18 - Cervelo - Orbea -
Quintana Roo
- 3T - Enve - Rotor - ISM - Schwalbe - I9 - Speedplay - Lake - Infinit - Zipp
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