I realize how harsh it is, but it would eventually make the marshal's job easier. you wouldn't have pros constantly "flirting" with the legal draft zone. Most of us will play it safe and avoid the risk of following too closely to avoid the high cost of being disqualified.

Same reason that traffic slows down to the legal limit when an HP officer is on the road (a speeding ticket is essentially 20 minutes + fine). The way it stands, pros aren't afraid to follow at 5m right in front of a draft marshal, when the worst they face is a 4-minute penalty (less than what they gain by drafting).

How about 20m draft zone AND 10-minute first offense, DQ 2nd offense, or something along those lines.......

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and a penalty run loop in T2.

Also, consider the structure of the rules... they benefit the passer (or cheater) and punish the passed (or workers), creating a system that rewards cheating. Any rule that forces someone to slow down after being passed by someone who benefited from the draft that that person who is now forced to slow created to allow the pass in the first place is wonky.

This is kind of like how communes break down... everyone is supposed to share (or not draft) out of moral obligation, but in the end the system only rewards laziness and the system breaks down.

Changes to the rules would include:

o 10 meters instead of 7 for AGers and 15 meters for pros
o absolutely no "slingshotting" or entering a draft zone and then having time to pass. Passes must be made outside of the draft zone.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Your not ever going to get a time trial start with the pros, it would ruin the spectator aspect.

Have you spectated at an IM event on the bike?

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. It is BORING.

-Jot "spent the day trying to track the pros on the bike and run"

Pinellas County (where Clearwater is located) is the most densely populated county in Florida. There are 3,339 people per square mile in Pinellas County. The next closest county with a highly concentrated population is Broward with 1,347 people per square mile. The vast majority of the locals view the race as a nuisance which ties up traffic. They will not stand for any changes which will lead to traffic being tied up that much longer. This would rule out TT starts and all of the other suggestions that would spread things out on the bike course. The WTC knows this and I would be very surprised to see any changes that will lead to longer road closures. The locals would revolt.

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/09/Northpinellas/New_route_should_ease.shtml

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=20061117&id=vNQNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=d3gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6369,1655702

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/09/24/Pasco/Ironman_promises_smoo.shtml

What you are missing is that this is a championship event for their race.

Institute new rules and kick anyone off the course if you are not back in T2 at noon. That means if the last wave leaves at 8:30 you have 3.5 hours to get off the bike. If you can't do it by then, the broom wagon picks you up off the course.

Its a championship event, not a tourist feel good event. If you are 25-29 or 45-49 (the last 2 waves this year) and can't pull it off in 3.5 hours and be back to T2 on a pancake flat course, you have no business being at the race. Sorry for the tough love for those in these age groups who may not be able to make the cutoff. If this sounds "elitest" well it is cause it is a championship event.

The championship event needs to cater to speed and the pointy end of the competition, not impinge on the pointy end for guys taking >3.5 hours to get to T2 in Clearwater.

Saying the roads have to close down is an excuse. The solution is to kick guys off the course if they are still on the course.

Here are the only guys in 25-29 to whom this would apply:

82 1675 Benoit Touzeau 29 Hyeres FRA 43:59 2:34:56 1:41:40 5:06:08

83 1684 Adonis Edwin Co 29 City Of San Fer PHL 46:23 2:42:55 2:03:57 5:41:49

84 1657 Regis Schmuck 29 Ensisheim FRA 41:18 2:44:47 2:22:05 5:55:35

85 1688 Leonardo Vianor 28 Blumenau BRA 30:58 2:58:24 2:30:08 6:07:11

and for 45-49:

111 1541 Keith Nelson 45 Treasure Island FL USA 41:34 2:50:15 2:15:31 5:55:56

113 1506 Glenn Millican 46 Rothesay NB CAN 47:04 2:53:04 2:14:26 6:04:30

114 194 Scott Cohen 49 New York NY USA 39:16 2:45:05 2:19:18 6:06:43

116 1536 Boon Beng Tan 45 Singapore MYS 40:23 2:53:15 2:32:17 6:17:21

117 1496 Rick Wilson 45 Tarpon Springs FL USA 32:37 3:03:04 2:31:00 6:21:03

118 1542 John Goss 47 So Pasadena FL USA 49:00 2:51:07 2:51:19 6:41:24

I'm not picking on these guys, just saying that it makes no sense to mess up a race for 1800 people (if they sell out) to cater to ~ 10 athletes that might not make a 3.5 hour cutoff to T2.

Dev

In your letter to the WTC, you state �Let�s go with waves of only 50 people at a time separated by 5 minutes. Or a true time trial start with one athlete only every 5 second.�

The first proposal would mean 10 racers/minute, the second would mean 12 racers/minute. If they start at 7:00am and there are 1800 participants (I got this number from your post), your first proposal would have the last swimmer starting at 10:00am. If we then give them 3.5 hours to get into T2 (your suggestion), it�s 1:30pm. Your numbers don�t work.

But what you are missing is - the locals don�t care that it�s a �Championship Event.� They care that they can�t get little Johnny to soccer practice because a bunch of people from out-of-town are tying up traffic. Getting little Johnny to practice is more important to them than some �Championship Event.�

In theory, yes, you 'should' only be dealing with the pointy end. But remember that an athlete's presence at this race isn't based solely on their qualifying time at another race; others may not have been the fastest, but have gotten a qualifying slot due to roll-down. Sometimes that roll-down could go quite deep in the field. I think Clearwater has cutoffs which are tighter than the qualifiers, but I don't think you can handle this the same as if it were a world championship based solely on minimum qualifying times to get a slot.

You've opened the door to anyone who gets to buy a slot, based on finish time, followed by rolldown for leftover slots. You want to be careful not to bring them all to Clearwater, and then slamming the door in their face with an artificially tight cutoff.

Been reading this thread with interest (having not done Clearwater but thinking I'd like to qualify sometime in the next few years).

If the locals don't like or support a World Champs race, why not move it elsewhere? There's already been plenty of griping about it being a mere month after Kona, meaning the top Ironman pros feel they won't be able to compete at their best and therefore don't enter. So why not move the course and the date to somewhere that fits better with that, and take care of the drafting problem at the same time? Kona is not bereft of drafting problems, but the course is tough enough that you can't cheat your way to a podium finish that easily. Why Clearwater has to be that way is beyond me. For a supposed marquee event, it really looks bad to have such an easy and easily-cheatable course for it.

I know that in stark contrast to Kona, Clearwater is lacking the history and "mystical reverence" to make it a respected race, meaning that it just won't get the support from the community that the full Ironman races do. But surely it can be moved somewhere that the locals will embrace it, if for nothing else than the tourism dollars?

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Why the Pro World Championships is flawed!

It is the density of riders that dooms the Pro World Championship where as the relatively poorly attended series events do not suffer the same problem.

If you assume the pros ride at modest 25mph that means they are travelling 11.2m/sec. That means they can come out the water/start the bike within a second of each other, and whilst still being technically draft legal, they are right on top of one another.

Looking at athletes exiting the water to find the greatest density (highest number of athletes in least time) it is roughly from the 3rd athlete to the 41st athlete with times of 21:48 and 22:39. So one can assume 38 athletes start the bike within 50 seconds of each other - at roughly 1 rider a second, and at 25mph, just outside the draft legal zone.

Assuming riders chose to adhere to the "pass the whole paceline without slotting in" rule it is nearly impossible for athlete 41 to ride up to athlete 3 as he would have to overtake a 400m long paceline moving at 28mph (Clearwater speeds). I know breaks in the line occur but I believe the underlying argument is sound. If you do not come out the water at the front it is highly unlikely you could maintain the necessary jump in power to make it to the front. Then there is some kind ITU style run race at the end.

Slowtwitch posters have suggested a solution is to increase the draft zone to 20 metres which I believe would taking athletes out the draft zone entirely (reference anyone?) but this is not possible with swimmers exiting the water at their current rate, unless everyone politely waited a second for a 20 metre gap whilst mounting the bike. Therefore a solution lies in reducing the density of swimmers exiting the water by introducing a time trial start, releasing athletes at 1 or 2 min intervals - followed by the implementation and ENFORCEMENT at a 20 metre draft zone. (I don't beleive a stagger will be effective as on the narrow roads of Clearwater, a 3 person stagger will block the entire road and make overtaking impossible)

I like the suggestion made by Paul of having a prologue to establish the gaps leading into the time trial over 70.3 distance;

Prologue: start 1 min apart, big party in town on Thu nite say 400m/4000/1600m which would take you guys 15 minutes, 5 min per sport. then a TT start on Saturday morning in the reverse order of prologue finish, at 10 second intervals.

...and it would definitely make more of an exhibition of the event. Though I think hosting the bike on a crit style circuit would be good. I don't think it suits the nature of time trialing and it is more likely lead to bunching through tight streets as Bjorn points out.

I aslo disagree that it would make the race less entertaing, if anything I would think it would make it more so. Clearwater must have been boring to watch. There was a swim, a boring bike where everyone stayed in one long line for two hrs and then a run race. I would think it would be much more exciting to watch the virtual lead chop and change, the lead actually shifting wildly through each discipline and then tracking athletes splits through the final miles to the finish time to see if the can claw back those vital few seconds.

Without a doubt, something has to be done about enforcing the no drafting rules. Athletes have shown themselves incapable of abiding by the rules and race officials are incapable of enforcing them (whether present or not). The punishment needs to fit the crime, athletes need to fear being given a penalty so they won't even consider it. But first of all the race needs to change to a workable format.

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http://www.tritom.co.uk
Pro Triathlete

I talked with a referee this weekend about drafting in im frankfurt. The problem for the referee is that they can not judge 10 metres at all, because it is hard to see from behind and it is not illegal to be within 10 metres for a short time. So he told me that what happens as soon as they show up near a pack is that the drafters immediately overtake the athlete in front, forcing him to slow down. 20 metres will make this even worse, because you must increase the time to pass with increasing the draft length.

The pack needs to be broken up way more then a 2 k swim will ever do. That is the problem. I think you can do that with really good wave start in big races. But the problem of waves is that the swim will still be a draft event so there are always groups coming in t1. I think that changing the format to swim run bike run would also help. Simply run 10 k after the swim and then go to the bike and run the remaing 10 k after biking. That will break up the group more then just a swim and it will also create some fatigue in the legs of the athletes. I think it will be much easier to break up legal packs after a swim/run then just after a 2 k swim. In IM it would be an option to run 13 miles first, and then jump on the bike. Ideal would be to do this together with a tt start, and the sport will be much more fair on the crowded races.

I like the prologue idea as well, but I think it should stay a one day event. But an out of the box solution is what we need cause the problem simply comes from the current format.

I think a swim run bike run would be better for itu racing as well. There will be much more action before the finish sprint in that way. But that is a different subject.

waves of 50 separated by 3 minutes would do it, getting us all off (1500 say) in around 1:30). Within each wave, if you started athletes in TT format at 2 second gaps (vs on top of each other), that gets 50 off in 100 seconds....then wait the next 80 seconds to bring up the next 50...and so on and so on and so on. The key is actually to wait the gap between waves to ensure that you only send off ~1500 athletes in 90 minutes. If that means cutting off the field at 1500 and jacking up the entry fee to $400, I can bet you there are 1500 clean athletes who don't want a draft fest that will pay the extra $100 for a shot at a fair half Ironman race.

Now for the pro race, I think Tritom has explained the situation quite well. Bottom line is that if you have 30 studs coming out of the water on a flat course, no one is escaping.

In the age group field at 3-5 bike lengths back of a large group you can still pedal at 40+ kph at 125-180W depending on how "tight the group is" vs having to go at 210-250W solo to hold that speed (for me) in relatively low winds. As I said, by dropping back >10 lengths till my power output came back up to >220W, I averaged 225W for a 2:16 split, which is quite in line with my normal half Ironman efforts. I'd love to see the power files of some of the 30-44 year old age group women riding substantially faster and outbiking Michellie and Magalie Tyssere....

In following the pro field at 5 lengths at 28 mph I can't guess what the following wattage would be in relation to "leading wattage", but perhaps someone who rode with a powermeter is willing to share. if nothing else it would shed light on the impact of riding legal outside the draft zone and how legit the current draft distance is or is not.

I know from the age group field, when groups of 50 TdF style peleton's passed me the drop in wattage at legal distance is what you experience when drafting a bus!

Dev

And what you are missing is that this is a money-making venture that owns a property that sells out no matter what they charge. There are a number of things they could to do solve the problem, and they won't do a single one of them. They have absolutely no motivation to do so. Nobody is watching over them to ensure that their "championship" race is run according to rules of fairness; after all, the WTC isn't an NGB that answers to some world governing body.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Med Tent Man said "And what you are missing is that this is a money-making venture that owns a property that sells out no matter what they charge. There are a number of things they could to do solve the problem, and they won't do a single one of them. They have absolutely no motivation to do so."


You are right, it is a big money making venture and unless the big name Pros speak out nothing will happen, but as Greg says, " perhaps a bunch convince themself that they would've finished as good or better in a fair race. some of them are right of course. But if races aren't fair, then it's all a crock of shit."

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http://www.tritom.co.uk
Pro Triathlete

Alternate Solution: Officials on Bikes

I just took part in my first 70.3 World championships in the 40-44 age group - I was in Wave 12.
Everyone who took part in the race agrees that the swim start was botched by reducing the overall time that it took to start the age groupers. Correcting this problem would be easy; maintain the group start times. If all of Wave 5 has gone off TT style then hold Wave 6 until the designated start of their group, then begin the TT start again. Even better, increase the gap between Waves from 5 min to 7, 8 or whatever can be negotiated regarding road closures. If you cant get any more time on the road then take the hard line and shut the course earlier as per Paul - this is the World Championship.

The Bike Fix
Go out to the local bike teams/clubs and recruit 20-40 Cat 1-2 or M1 riders to act as officials. They could just supplement the existing ones who were overwhelmed. I am sure that all you would need to do to get these cyclists to join up is a chance to ride a single loop 90km closed course; throw in a shirt and cap and your costs are covered. Pay them $100 each to make it all legal and you are good to go. The cyclist officials will use their own TT bikes and be set up with a distinctive jersey to mark them. Supply the cyclist official with:
- an earpiece for communication to race official headquarters
- a camera attached to their helmet for video evidence
- a Yellow and Red card (soccer style) which they can have in their back pockets.

How it will work
- The cycling officials will start the race in the transition area leaving every 5 minutes along side the competitors. A CAT 1-2 or M1 rider will easily pass hundreds of triathletes on a 90km course. The cycling officials will also not just swam 1.9km's nor will they be faced with a 21km run after the bike, so they can focus all of their energy into the bike leg. Race officials can also draft if they need to conserve energy.
-The cycling officials will have no problem spotting drafting as they are all extremely familiar with it.
-The cycling officials will have a huge advantage over the motorcycles as they do not need to work their way through vehicle traffic to get along side the competitors.
- When an infraction is spotted the cycling official will 1st communicate with headquarters through the earpiece stating the rider number. Race headquarters will quickly be able to tell if it is the 1st infraction � Yellow, or the 2nd - Red and disqualification.
- The race official then rides up the rider who has committed the infraction and shows them the card and calls out their number. The riders have all been briefed (pre race) on what to do should an infraction occur. The rider pulls into the next time-out tent. If the rider passes by the Time out tent then they will be stopped at transition. An additional penalty could be applied for passing a time out tent.
- If the drafting persists after a Yellow card is pulled out, then the official will pull out a Red Card. A disqualified rider will not be allowed out onto the Run Course. The race official can continue along side or right behind the penalized rider until the legal gap is established.
- The cycling officials can become a deterrent to cheating. The next guy coming up from behind you may be a cycling official and you will not be able to hear them coming, unlike a motorcycle.

The challenge
- The cycling officials still need to be able to make the call and pull out the violation card. The video that the officials take from their helmet cams can only help to improve the officiating year-after-year as the officials can review and improve. The video can also be used to eliminate subjectivity and complaining from penalized competitors (or maybe just reduce it).

Ken, you can bitch all you want in a forum.

Bottom line is Clearwater DOES NOT SELL OUT. Slots are going untaken.

That means they sell slots for lest to RD's next year. Providence Equity partners cares about the valuation of WTC when they go to sell and they will in a few years.

If I am board member of Providence Equity, I'm going to eventually hear that WTC has not done everything they can to maximize the value of the brand and as a private equity firm, this matters to me.

I am sure you understand how private equity firms and boards of directors work with respect to providing pressure on corporate management.

Dev

Dev, I'm not bitching: I don't care. I've never done, and never will do, any of these draftfests. It's not an issue to me; I only read this for entertainment purposes.

I'm dubious that WTC would have put more people on that course, but of course they just may have if more people sign up. How many slots were available, and how many were taken? You must know, else you just heard that some slots weren't taken. I'm going to guess that nearly all slots were taken. And I'll further speculate that passed-on slots were not due to drafting issues; you can correct me if you know I'm wrong. Thus addressing the draft issues isn't going to maximize value of the brand. Finally, I'll bet cash dollars that PE is happy as punch that this race makes as much money as it does.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

    
"Kicking athletes off the course"... is easier said than done.

How do you go about removing dozens of athletes off a course? Athletes that are moving along at a pretty decent clip within normal race standards. That are not willing to quit. In most races the ones that are being pulled don't take much convincing...that would definately not be the case here.

You also just can't open roads back up when there are this many athletes still left on the course on such a high traffic area. Finding the dozens of athletes still left on the course would be a challenge as well.

In typical races the athletes that are being removed from the course are so far back that they don't really cause any traffic problems. It does not create personnel problems when course officials are picking up a van load of athletes...a bus load of athletes and bikes is a whole different story.

Catering events to small populations is standard...that is how the safety plans are developed. The safety/race/logistics plans are not primarily focused on the athletes that enter the race mentally and physically prepared...they tend to take care of themselves...the plans are designed for those athletes that are not physically or mentally prepared.

Brucebird "Go out to the local bike teams/clubs and recruit 20-40 Cat 1-2 or M1 riders to act as officials." - This is just going to add more bikes on the course and give people more bikes to draft behind

Bottom line - at Clearwater officials were as unreliable as the athletes. An electronic athlete tracking system which monitors gaps between athletes and how long they are maintained has to be the way forward?

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http://www.tritom.co.uk
Pro Triathlete

Paging H20Fun......4........3.......2.....1

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I've decided to join in the discussion officially. I am the other pro triathlete Tom mentioned who has written an honest assessment of the drafting problem at Clearwater (http://gregremaly.blogspot.com/...d-championships.html).

I think Tom has spelled it out very well why the current mass start doesn't work for the pro field with a championship-sized/quality field. I think the time-trial start with 1-2 minute gaps would work excellently, and it would be very exciting with live scoreboards, splits, and everything else. I would think the slowtwitch crowd would be whole-heartedly for this, since the "sexiness" would be back in the bike - aero position, wattage, and pacing would assume their rightful importance in the race, rather than one's swim placement and which bike pack one finds himself in. The current race is indeed boring. Very boring to race in, I can only imagine how boring to watch, since I would never watch a race like that myself.

If WTC doesn't care to implement a fair and exciting race plan like this, then someone else should. There's no inevitability that WTC will continue to corner the market on long-course triathlon. With the right marketing, technology, and prize purse, you will have a world-class race with a world-class field that people will truly be excited about. The innovation of the race would create tremendous buzz. Everyone will be wondering and speculating if Chris Lieto would beat Craig Alexander in this format. It certainly would settle a lot of arguments. The best pros would want to race to prove to themselves and to the world that they are the best in a truly fair format.

Of course Memphis in May already has this format - Olympic-distance, :30 apart for the pros. And it's a great race, one of my very favorites. With a big prize purse, marketing, and increased technology (live scoreboard on-site and online, video coverage), Memphis or any other race could easily supplant WTC's sham "world championships."

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Greg Remaly - Pro Triathlete

gregremaly.blogspot.com

http://www.gregremaly.com

The technology is here, has been for over a year. I use it all the time. Any of these businesses could give it a try if they really cared about doing something. If I were them, I would continue to find all the excuses of why not to try it since I would not want to upset my paying customers.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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at the very least organizers could use the technology at races like clearwater to understand how the dynamics of the draft packs happen and then use that knowledge to design courses and marshalling plans that are more effective at preventing the problem.

I would love to see a computer simulation that shows all the bikes flowing around the course and seeing how (at Clearwater) they come together into draft packs that seem to have a "life of their own".

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Greg, what are you guys doing to pitch your ideas to the WTC?

I have my ideas as a fan...and I like what you guys are saying, but it has to work for pros.

I have a conf call with Steve McFassel this afternoon to discuss aspects of the age group race that can be improved. I believe that the WTC cares and wants a fair event with worthy champions. If not, Mr. McFassel would not be wasting time talking with age group participants on inputs. Having a draftfest label, impacts the value of the race.

We can't continue to have a situation where the pro race is dumbed down for the age group race. I truly believe that you guys can increase the value to WTC of your race (and thereby for yourselves), with an active pro athlete advisory group that constructively works with the WTC on delivering a level playing field with an exciting format that can be more effectively packaged for media.

Right now there is "no show" in the pro race. Its a bit of snorefest. Group swim, group ride, and the run becomes one of attrition. At least in ITU, you can tune in after T2 for some SERIOUS fireworks.

In 70.3, there are no fireworks on the run....its still long enough to be largely a race of attrition (thus snorefest), aside from the single sprint finish between Lieto and Crowie earlier this year!

Using the technology around a TT format with live updates on the net, jumbotron and TV of the leaderboard can add to the excitement and "packaging factor". But you guys need to do something about it and show WTC how they can make more money packaging the event differently. Just complaining will get you nowhere fast. You need to show how WTC can increase the scope of its business, cause they are businessmen first (right?).

Dev

I agree. I don't have the business skills or expertise to make a pitch to the WTC or whoever by myself, but I would be happy to work with people who do have that experience and know-how. It's a great idea, just needing implementation.

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Greg Remaly - Pro Triathlete

gregremaly.blogspot.com

http://www.gregremaly.com

Greg,

Just like when you pitch to your sponsor, your first question should be "what's in it for my sponsor" (they don't really care what is in it for you....how do you help them meet their business goals).

Likewise, the question is "what's in it for WTC?".

Whether it is WTC, sponsors, spouse, kids, customers, suppliers, if we want to get our goals achieved, its a matter of convincing them that this is the best solution for them (not us, even though it is good for us)....or as I learned in my armed forces leadership training, "when the solidier thinks the idea/mission is his, you are assured of buy in and follow on success" :-).