Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective
Quote | Reply
I found Lionel's thoughts on the 70.3 Worlds fiasco worthy of their own thread. Hopefully, we can all follow Lionel's lead by taking a constructive and proactive approach to addressing the issue!

Rock on,

Scott

Lionel Sanders wrote:


https://lsanderstri.com/

70.3 Worlds has been a tough race to swallow. In the months leading into the race, I said to myself many times: If you keep the swim deficit to 3 minutes, push 360w on the bike, and then run 3:20/km for the half-marathon, you will win the World Title. On Sunday, I came out of the water with a little over 3 minute deficit, averaged 364w normalized power on the bike, and then averaged exactly 3:20/km for the run. It was good for ninth place, nearly 3 minutes behind the front of the race. I can’t get down on myself, as this is likely the best performance of my career, and was exactly what I had hoped to accomplish.

It’s obvious that my assessment of what is required to win a World Title was way off. I think the root of the problem was that I based my assessment on the races I had done earlier this year. Those races had many great athletes, who were also in the race yesterday. What they did not have was a very large and well organized front pack on the bike. What I failed to appreciate prior to yesterday, was just how strong the drafting effect is, when in that front bike pack. Despite pushing the highest average power I have pushed all year, I still was out-biked by nearly twenty guys. The reason the pill is difficult to swallow is that off of lesser power outputs, in prior races this year, I was able to pull back 3 to 5 minutes from many of those same people.

As the rules currently stand, the draft zone is 12 meters from front wheel to front wheel, which makes the space between bikes 10 meters. It is obvious from Sunday, that despite this distance, there is still a significant draft effect occurring. That is where the rules currently stand, and everyone played within those rules, so I can’t be upset with any of my competitors. I would say the reason this particular performance stings so much is because of my expectations.

We describe the Ironman bike leg as being “non-drafting.” One would think that if it is truly “non-drafting” then there should be no draft effect occurring on the bike whatsoever. This just simply is not the case. Unfortunately, I came to this race thinking it would be a non-draft bike, and had a rude awakening. In reality, as the rules currently stand, Ironman biking is “semi draft-legal.” I have not done anything to change the rules, so I can’t complain about the rules.

I think everything happens for a reason though, and suddenly this issue means a lot more to me. Moving forward I see only two options for the future of Ironman racing. Either we stop pretending that the bike ride is non-drafting, and call it what it truly is: A semi draft-legal bike; or we change the rules and the method in which they are enforced, so that the bike ride is truly non-drafting. That way no one’s expectations differ from the reality that they experience, and athletes can make more informed decisions on which races to do and which ones to stay away from.

Moving forward I am going to investigate which direction the pro field would like to take. I will say, in speaking with some athletes after the race, there certainly seems to be a sentiment that the rules need to change. It appears that Ironman racing has evolved significantly over the last few years, yet the rules have remained the same. Perhaps a 12 meter draft zone created the desired effect in the past, but this is not the case anymore.

Of course, I am very aware of the age old argument: Why don’t you just swim faster, so that you can participate in the draft dynamics? My response to that argument is this: You are missing the point! If I was a front pack swimmer, the draft rules would still be disadvantageous to me. As you saw on Sunday, the uber-bikers like Andi Drietz and Sebastien Kienle were unable to get away; largely because of the sheer size of the pack, and the fact that the drafting effect becomes progressively larger, the further you go back in the pack. If the race was truly non-drafting then the race would have looked significantly different.

Another argument that I am sure will be made is that the pro men have already voted in favour of “semi draft-legal” racing, by virtue of the fact that many of the top contenders rode as a pack, spaced exactly 12 meters apart. My response to this argument is: Not everyone was in that pack, and not everyone who was in that pack wanted to ride within that pack. I think many guys were forced to adopt a “if you can’t beat them, join them” mentality. And of course, everyone who was not in that pack, was disadvantaged by that pack.

I greatly appreciate everyone’s messages and support before, during and after the race. I gave it everything I had on the day. Moving forward, I will be hitting the pool hardcore, while rallying for change.
Last edited by: GreatScott: Sep 6, 16 16:10
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Unless the sport changes to a time trial with significant spacing which won't happen, then yes, the right answer is to improve the swim. I love Lionel's honesty, but "semi-draft legal" is as good as it's going to get. I don't suppose Lionel would advocate WTC going to the ITU format where swimming is even more important than it has become in the WTC pro ranks.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HuffNPuff wrote:
Unless the sport changes to a time trial with significant spacing which won't happen, then yes, the right answer is to improve the swim. I love Lionel's honesty, but "semi-draft legal" is as good as it's going to get. I don't suppose Lionel would advocate WTC going to the ITU format where swimming is even more important than it has become in the WTC pro ranks.

Just call it what it is, and change the rules to support what it already is. The only folks I have ever really heard complain about "drafting", are the bike studs.
(Just like the only folks I hear complaining about wet suits are swim studs)

Folks know that to compete at that level at the top, whether ITU or WTC or, you have to be a top swimmer also, and biker, and runner. Very few folks can win
without being all three.

Nothing is going to change, just every year we get these same threads over and over again. :(

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Just call it what it is, and change the rules to support what it already is.

That is ultimately what I take issue with. Athlete guides and everything from WTC say it is an individual race, don't draft, blah blah blah. And then they enforce and almost encourage something different. If this is what it is going to be, quit pretending it isn't. Change the rules. Then you won't have a guy completely destroy the field all year, then show up at the WC's, race the race that has won him everything, and get destroyed.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HuffNPuff wrote:
Unless the sport changes to a time trial with significant spacing which won't happen, then yes, the right answer is to improve the swim. I love Lionel's honesty, but "semi-draft legal" is as good as it's going to get. I don't suppose Lionel would advocate WTC going to the ITU format where swimming is even more important than it has become in the WTC pro ranks.

Do you personally think races should be decided by the air being pushed by lead vehicles, media motos, and race officials?


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Nothing is going to change, just every year we get these same threads over and over again. :(

The difference here is the tone at the top. If the professional ranks push for change, then maybe we have a chance?

Scott
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You simply can't have a fair WC race on a flat course. The whole reason for moving the WC from Florida to Lake Mead was to make the bike much more fair. Now we are just back to where we started. It is like WTC didn't learn anything.

..
Last edited by: dogmile: Sep 6, 16 16:48
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [McNabb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
McNabb wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Just call it what it is, and change the rules to support what it already is.


That is ultimately what I take issue with. Athlete guides and everything from WTC say it is an individual race, don't draft, blah blah blah. And then they enforce and almost encourage something different. If this is what it is going to be, quit pretending it isn't. Change the rules. Then you won't have a guy completely destroy the field all year, then show up at the WC's, race the race that has won him everything, and get destroyed.


Problem is, if you take what WTC states, and I assume what you support, the rules today prove this is not the race some say it is. Today it is legal to draft in the swim, right.
So, if folks want what they say, then why are they not complaining as much about the swim is legally draft legal. And even on the run, you can sit behind someone,
as Gwen did, and get an advantage.

As I say, the only folks who over the years tend to complain are the bikers who cannot swim. Does Andy potts complain all the time?

So if you really really want what some say, the sports is 100% individual, well, there were have to be HUGE changes in the entire race. Will never happen.

It is not, and has never been, an individual sport.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Last edited by: h2ofun: Sep 6, 16 16:52
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dogmile wrote:
You simply can't have a fair WC race on a flat course. The whole reason for moving the WC from Florida to Lake Mead was to make the bike much more fair. Now we are just back to where we started. It is like WTC didn't learn anything.

..

Why does WTC need to learn anything? Did the race sell out? Case closed.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You know what needs to change? The number of pro's allowed to the world championship. There way too many pro's (mostly the men) at 70.3 and IM world champs. You reduce the number (to say 20-30 men, this should get rid of some (not all) of the people who are in the big groups on the bike and who don't really belong in those groups. And what I mean by not belonging is that if they were riding by themselves and not in a group, could they maintain that same pace as the group they are riding in. If no, then they don't belong. There's just too many people sitting back and going along for the ride. We somehow need to reduce the numbers in these groups and that should help some. It won't fix everything but it's a good start.

blog
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
dogmile wrote:
You simply can't have a fair WC race on a flat course. The whole reason for moving the WC from Florida to Lake Mead was to make the bike much more fair. Now we are just back to where we started. It is like WTC didn't learn anything.

..


Why does WTC need to learn anything? Did the race sell out? Case closed.

You have a pretty low bar for success.

..
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:

Just call it what it is, and change the rules to support what it already is. The only folks I have ever really heard complain about "drafting", are the bike studs.
(Just like the only folks I hear complaining about wet suits are swim studs)

(

Except up until today, you were one of the most vocal critics of drafting. calling it cheating, and you are self-admittedly not a "bike stud" Damn shame you got called out on your hypocrisy.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [Power13] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The best solution would be to make the swim much longer. This would encourage the fast swimmers to break up the field more effectively.
And of course, the normal gaps would become larger.

This would be of little help for LS though.

But do we really need a "Tri" world champion who is worse than competitive 10 year olds in one of the three sports.
Last edited by: dirtymangos: Sep 6, 16 17:42
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Id guess there are some % of FOP racers who like "semi-draft legal" and some % who would prefer a 15m (or whatever) gap to eliminate all draft benefits.

How would a rule like this actually change?

Do you get a bunch of the pros to lobby WTC? Does it go to a Joe-shmo vote? Does WTC have a competition committee like NFL or other sports have?
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dirtymangos wrote:
The best solution would be to make the swim much longer. .

Would be ideal, but i doubt it would get much love on these forums.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dirtymangos wrote:
The best solution would be to make the swim much longer. This would encourage the fast swimmers to break up the field more effectively.
And of course, the normal gaps would become larger.

This would be of little help for LS though.

But do we really need a "Tri" world champion who is worse than competitive 10 year olds in one of the three sports.


I agree. Sanders sounds like an uber biker who is complaining he was left behind by the uber swimmers. And this is in a sport where the swim is only about 20% of the overall race. He should be thankful that a 70.3 swim is only a little bit longer than an OD swim.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's not missing the point to tell the guy to swim faster. That is the point. Then he has a chance to win.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lotsa fair points in there.

I hate drafting about as much as anyone. That said, there is a diminishing return the further back you ride. And of course, wind speed and direction make a difference. In still air or a dead headwind being a considerable distance back can still have some beneficial effect. In a crosswind, you can be rubbing wheels and still get no advantage. You have to echelon to catch a break.

I think the 12m rule is a reasonable compromise. Afterall, the current rules already mean that you have to break the rules in a busy IM race (all those people swim 1:00 to 1:10 can't all ride legally in the beginning part of the ride). 12m makes sense.

While he appreciates that swimming faster is the obvious answer (as opposed to changing the rules, making new ones or wave/TT swim starts or whatever), it's still the obvious answer.

Rule #5

Train your weakness, race your strength. Afterall, a 3 minute faster swim would have got him in the pack. He could have ridden just as fast at say 320W and been fresher for the run, coming home with the win. Relying on a fast bike isn't the answer.

He may feel that he's the better athlete (and may be right) but unfortunately, as much as we'd like to think a race is to determine the best athlete, it's just about who finishes fastest, with the rules. That's a subtle but important distinction. It seems he was beaten by better swimmers that raced smarter.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dirtymangos wrote:
The best solution would be to make the swim much longer. This would encourage the fast swimmers to break up the field more effectively. And of course, the normal gaps would become larger.
This would be of little help for LS though. But do we really need a "Tri" world champion who is worse than competitive 10 year olds in one of the three sports.

Ya, if you had a 3.6 mi swim instead of 1.2, that would greatly reduce the drafting and put the swim times roughly equal to the run times, e.g. in the 1:10-1:15 range. My kind of race. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericmulk wrote:
dirtymangos wrote:
The best solution would be to make the swim much longer. This would encourage the fast swimmers to break up the field more effectively. And of course, the normal gaps would become larger.
This would be of little help for LS though. But do we really need a "Tri" world champion who is worse than competitive 10 year olds in one of the three sports.


Ya, if you had a 3.6 mi swim instead of 1.2, that would greatly reduce the drafting and put the swim times roughly equal to the run times, e.g. in the 1:10-1:15 range. My kind of race. :)

... and 100 people would register for the race. Maybe.

Sounds like great idea.

Yes, I did see your smiley face. :-)

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Unless the sport changes to a time trial with significant spacing which won't happen, then yes, the right answer is to improve the swim. I love Lionel's honesty, but "semi-draft legal" is as good as it's going to get. I don't suppose Lionel would advocate WTC going to the ITU format where swimming is even more important than it has become in the WTC pro ranks.

Do you personally think races should be decided by the air being pushed by lead vehicles, media motos, and race officials?

Well, that is a related question, but kind of out of the blue. But no, the lead vehicles and media motors should be 50 meters or more in front. They sell these things called telephoto lens so they have no reason to be close. Refs are a different story...what is your solution?
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [monsrider] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monsrider wrote:
dirtymangos wrote:
The best solution would be to make the swim much longer. This would encourage the fast swimmers to break up the field more effectively. And of course, the normal gaps would become larger. This would be of little help for LS though. But do we really need a "Tri" world champion who is worse than competitive 10 year olds in one of the three sports.

I agree. Sanders sounds like an uber biker who is complaining he was left behind by the uber swimmers. And this is in a sport where the swim is only about 20% of the overall race. He should be thankful that a 70.3 swim is only a little bit longer than an OD swim.

Actually, more like 10% with a range of 9.5-11.5% for the pro men:

For Josh Amberger, the swim leader: swim = 21:56 = 21.93 min, total time = 3:49:01 = 229.02 min, 21.93/229.02 x 100% = 9.6%
For Lionel Sanders, uber biker: swim = 25:41 = 25.68 min, total time = 3:47:14 = 227.23 min, 25.68/227.23 x 100% = 11.3%
For Tim Reed, overall winner: swim = 22:53 = 22.88 min, total time = 3:44:14 = 224.23 min, 22.88/224.23 x 100% = 10.2%


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mvenneta wrote:
Id guess there are some % of FOP racers who like "semi-draft legal" ...

Thinking Timbo Reed is in this camp right about now.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lionel's issue, which he's very well aware of, and which was duly noted in the other thread is that giving up 3 minutes on the swim to a legit and stacked pro field is a death sentence. He cannot make that up. He can on the softer fields he beats up on at other 70.3's... and I say that not knocking Lionel as he can only race against who shows up, but the 70.3 WC is not Panama or Galveston.

Kona is even more daunting for him. Spotting the top guys 9 minutes on the swim is a complete deal breaker.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting at WTC races - LS Perspective [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dirtymangos wrote:
But do we really need a "Tri" world champion who is worse than competitive 10 year olds in one of the three sports.

Okay, that's pretty funny.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Quote Reply

Prev Next