"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
Triathlon Forum
Login required to started new threads
Login required to post replies
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [boothrand]
[ In reply to ]
"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [stringcheese]
[ In reply to ]
Nah....that just grows hair on your palms.
Badabing!
Badabing!
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [M Marriott]
[ In reply to ]
Only have a moment here today, but I'll try to make my point quickly and succinctly.
1. At this point in my life, its going to take something substantially more than: "if you've got the guts" to get my attention. I am happy to let someone "sit in" on a few of my workouts and see if they can hang, because I'm going to be doing the same workout regardless.
2. And really, if I were to take my time and come up there to cherry pic some CF event, that'd be a pretty lame-assed thing to do; like beating up a little kid or something. NO, I think the challenge (as stated by an earlier CF post-er) is pretty good "as is".
3. This is an OPEN INVITATION, any CF'r who wishes to come do this AG'rs weekly training program can just PM me. This is as transparent an offer as I can create. No hostility, I"ll be nice; I promise. Like I said, this is what I do week in and week out anyway....................
persequetur vestra metas furiose
1. At this point in my life, its going to take something substantially more than: "if you've got the guts" to get my attention. I am happy to let someone "sit in" on a few of my workouts and see if they can hang, because I'm going to be doing the same workout regardless.
2. And really, if I were to take my time and come up there to cherry pic some CF event, that'd be a pretty lame-assed thing to do; like beating up a little kid or something. NO, I think the challenge (as stated by an earlier CF post-er) is pretty good "as is".
3. This is an OPEN INVITATION, any CF'r who wishes to come do this AG'rs weekly training program can just PM me. This is as transparent an offer as I can create. No hostility, I"ll be nice; I promise. Like I said, this is what I do week in and week out anyway....................
persequetur vestra metas furiose
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [boothrand]
[ In reply to ]
None of these fads (aside from the ones that ARE swimming, biking or running, like TI and Pose/Chi) replace swimming, biking or running. And none of them will necessarily help you beat someone who's just swimming, biking and running.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [tsmagnum]
[ In reply to ]
This certainly has been an interesting thread. I agree that CF/CFE could help athletes more like me, ie. not very good ATM. I cannot see how squatting 350 lbs will/would help me qualify for Kona. Not sure if anything could. In general, strength training, core strength and flexabily most likly will help to an extent. At 5' 10", 235 lbs, and no, i am not fat anymore, anything that adds even more weight to me, will kill me on a hilly bike course and any run.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [E_moto]
[ In reply to ]
Your right. The "If you've go the guts" comment was childish and uncalled for.
For that I apologize.
V/R
Mike Marriott
LtCol USMC, Retired
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [jackmott]
[ In reply to ]
Hmmmmm.....How to be mediocre in 10 hours or less. Stick to training fat old people champ.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Rocketman]
[ In reply to ]
Indeed Rocket Man...I think it's gonna be a long long time...(sorry for the bad joke...it's the morning)
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Francois]
[ In reply to ]
Sorry for bringing up an old post but I just found this forum through a crossfit affiliate posting and it's really a great topic that I think will only heat up over the next 5 to 10 years.
First, I am no elite athlete but I am an experienced competitive swimmer, track runner, XC runner, mtn biker, cyclist (RR, TT and Crit), boxer (yes, its and endurance sport...try it!) and triathlete.
With regard to CF (not CFE), the purpose is to develope the highest levels of overall fitness that can be applied to all physical challenges. While a CF athlete might not be the best 10k runner they would not be that far behind a comparable 10k runner and then CRUSH the 10k runner at any task involving strength, speed, power, coordination (all aspects of fitness). CF proudly claims it is not about specializing but in developing the highest level of general fitness. It show cases a world class decathlete as a better example of fitness than a marathoner... makes sense if your definition of fitness includes endurance, stamina, strength, speed, power, coordination.
There is a reason that the Marine Corps, SPECOPS/SEALs, fire fighters, law enforcement, UFC fighters are rushing to CF. It's not because its cool and trendy its because it works. Look at the list I just layed out...these are people that rely on fitness for their lives!! Some have posted that Marine PFT scores have gone down because of CF. First I would say that the PFT is a specialized event. Lower scores could mean the Marine grew in some other capacity that increased overall fitness...such as improved deadlift capabilty or faster sprint...two thing that I think are more significant to a combat bound Marine than sit ups. Second, perhaps the units implementation of CF was flawed- that is fairly common. Third, for every story that has been posted how CF made a Marine/soldier less fit I have read ten that say the opposite. One that comes to memory was of a 40-something Gunney that did nothing but CF (no CFE) and CRUSHED the PFT, far surpassing his PFT scores as a young Marine. Here's one from personal experience. During my last tour in the navy I was an officer recruiter and one of the other recruiters was a SEAL. I had been doing CF for about 5 months when I got him into it. Six months later he said he was in the best shape of his life...better than when he graduated from BUD/s!
With regard to CFE it is unproven in elite levels of competition, granted, BUT does that mean it should automatically be thrown out? There are a lot of dismissive attitudes here that would lend me to believe a lot of you know everything there is to know about training. The fact is that no one does... we will all learn more and better techniques. That is unless we are too close minded. Also, what is considered to be the pinnacle of performance today (Allen, Macca, Armstrong) does not dictate the truth of tomorrow. We might all be surprised in 10 years and find out that CFE had it right. All I am saying is be more open minded...maybe even try a CF workout!
On the CFE principles, they are interesting and could provide some value. I remember from all my forms of competition that swimming was the only sport that I did intervals every day. When I first got into tris I learned swimming was the only discipline where you could do intervals every workout without having problems...so you do intervals. Why? Because its the most effective even for racing distances of +500 meters. Yes, you put in the yardage but its all intervals. Maybe there is something to learn from that.
Lastly, as stated I am not some elite athlete and I would wager that neither are most of you. If you could spend 1/3 of your time training and still get good if not better results at the amatuer level and spend more time with friends, family and other passions, why wouldnt you? Why wouldnt you at least look into it?
-Andre
First, I am no elite athlete but I am an experienced competitive swimmer, track runner, XC runner, mtn biker, cyclist (RR, TT and Crit), boxer (yes, its and endurance sport...try it!) and triathlete.
With regard to CF (not CFE), the purpose is to develope the highest levels of overall fitness that can be applied to all physical challenges. While a CF athlete might not be the best 10k runner they would not be that far behind a comparable 10k runner and then CRUSH the 10k runner at any task involving strength, speed, power, coordination (all aspects of fitness). CF proudly claims it is not about specializing but in developing the highest level of general fitness. It show cases a world class decathlete as a better example of fitness than a marathoner... makes sense if your definition of fitness includes endurance, stamina, strength, speed, power, coordination.
There is a reason that the Marine Corps, SPECOPS/SEALs, fire fighters, law enforcement, UFC fighters are rushing to CF. It's not because its cool and trendy its because it works. Look at the list I just layed out...these are people that rely on fitness for their lives!! Some have posted that Marine PFT scores have gone down because of CF. First I would say that the PFT is a specialized event. Lower scores could mean the Marine grew in some other capacity that increased overall fitness...such as improved deadlift capabilty or faster sprint...two thing that I think are more significant to a combat bound Marine than sit ups. Second, perhaps the units implementation of CF was flawed- that is fairly common. Third, for every story that has been posted how CF made a Marine/soldier less fit I have read ten that say the opposite. One that comes to memory was of a 40-something Gunney that did nothing but CF (no CFE) and CRUSHED the PFT, far surpassing his PFT scores as a young Marine. Here's one from personal experience. During my last tour in the navy I was an officer recruiter and one of the other recruiters was a SEAL. I had been doing CF for about 5 months when I got him into it. Six months later he said he was in the best shape of his life...better than when he graduated from BUD/s!
With regard to CFE it is unproven in elite levels of competition, granted, BUT does that mean it should automatically be thrown out? There are a lot of dismissive attitudes here that would lend me to believe a lot of you know everything there is to know about training. The fact is that no one does... we will all learn more and better techniques. That is unless we are too close minded. Also, what is considered to be the pinnacle of performance today (Allen, Macca, Armstrong) does not dictate the truth of tomorrow. We might all be surprised in 10 years and find out that CFE had it right. All I am saying is be more open minded...maybe even try a CF workout!
On the CFE principles, they are interesting and could provide some value. I remember from all my forms of competition that swimming was the only sport that I did intervals every day. When I first got into tris I learned swimming was the only discipline where you could do intervals every workout without having problems...so you do intervals. Why? Because its the most effective even for racing distances of +500 meters. Yes, you put in the yardage but its all intervals. Maybe there is something to learn from that.
Lastly, as stated I am not some elite athlete and I would wager that neither are most of you. If you could spend 1/3 of your time training and still get good if not better results at the amatuer level and spend more time with friends, family and other passions, why wouldnt you? Why wouldnt you at least look into it?
-Andre
Last edited by:
XFitRunner: Jul 21, 09 9:03
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
kool-aid
------------------------------
Jack
------------------------------
Jack
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Vagabond]
[ In reply to ]
Life has taught me that when you question someone's beliefs, the way they view the world, their values they are threathened and can become dismissive or combative. They will dismiss your ideas not by addressing them but by dismissing you with insults. This just means they are afraid of your ideas and what it might do to theirs.
Oh, and thanks for reiterating my point on close mindedness.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [nproximos]
[ In reply to ]
i'm glad you caught that -- thats the importance of specificity for god's sake!
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
CF goes against the principle of specificity of training which is proven. If you don't believe me - just become a swimmer for 6 months, then after that period of time try and run a 5k and see how it goes.
If I don't want to be good at anything in particular then i would be happy to do CF. Also because CF is relatively new I would be interested to see injury rates over the next couple of years due to the multitude of olympic lifting that is done and often done incorrectly at least from the videos i see posted on the internet.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
No reasonably fit Marine is struggling with Sit-ups. It's the Pull-ups and Run that kill their scores. Die hard cross fitters generally have the pull-ups down, which i promise is where the 40 Yr Old Marine improved his score from when he was young. It's the Aerobic event of a simple 3 mile run that kills them. Running a sub 18 minute 3 mile is not THAT hard with proper run training. While the basic PFT is no where near the end all indicator of fitness, it does show your aerobic fitness level.
As a Reconnaissance Marine, i've seen lots of training fads come and go. Thankfully crossfit has been on its way out since it spiked in popularity about a year ago.
Increasing your max deadlift doesn't help a team of Recon Operators make long range movements through the mountains with heavy packs where your heart is averaging 145 BPM for 4 hours and spiking in the 180's on hills. Funny enough, endurance training on a bike, running, swimming, and hiking with the pack itself does help this effort. Cross training with weights, gymnastics and plyometrics has it's role to help sustain core and other strengths, but cardiovascular endurance should be the bulk(70% or more) of the training.
There is not one crossfitting Marine in my unit i have not dropped on a ruck run by a large amount. Coincidently, my 3 mile is many minutes faster also. My aerobic capacity and muscular endurance is significantly higher as a result of better training.
Crossfitting makes you good at crossfit.
Andre, Crossfit is not a bad program. I am all about a program that the masses get excited about and follow. 99% of the population is going to see good results using crossfit as their base workout. The athletes here are focused on going long. No one here gives a shit about how fast they can complete helen. We are interested in completing Ironmans, Half's and Oly's as fast as we can.
To most here the satisfaction of setting a new PR riding our bikes up a 5000 Ft climb and gazing out over the mountains we just conquered is more satisfying than adding 10 pounds to a deadlift in a stuffy Gym where folks can't stop admiring themselves in the mirror.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Rappstar]
[ In reply to ]
and... (to piggy back) if the cf athelete was a comprable runner, but was stronger then he is lacking endurance. Because as my college weight coach taught us (i am a swimmer) there is no race that is see who can go the longest. It is who can go this set distance the fastest. If he was a comprable runner, yet stronger as an athelete then he is lacking endurance. Since it is said that they could run at similar paces then it would suit the CF to improve his endurance slightly and he would be dominant. So in all honesty i agree that methods of training need to be constantly adapting to new ideas and trying new things especially as science improves it understanding of the human body. But in say this sport in general i think that there is a trade off. If say you took that great runner and added this to his program and his strength went up then he would be faster. I read an article that i am sure ill never find (strength coach gave me) that says that endurance athletes can see better improvement by replacing one endurance workout a week with strength training. It comes down to who has the fastest time over that distance increase strength while maintaining endurance you will get faster.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
Where's the x-fit forum I can log into where I can regurgitate somebody else's theories about the benefits of triathlon training on a bunch of people who aren't interested in my goals or what I have to say in a condescending, "holier than though" tone?
-------------------------------
Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.
-------------------------------
Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
I'm sorry that you brought this up too.
You know, I have never seen that asterisk on a 10K results page. You know, the one that denotes this guy could kick the winner ass in throwing around a kettle ball and should be taken in account for his results.
repeat after me. base, build and peak. throw in your cf if you want, but it comes down to those three words in all three sports. If you have time for anything else, good on you.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
Ironically, your first post was an answer to my post, and I happen to be one of those who's tried CrossFit. I've been doing it for 2 months, because I wanted to try (since going to a gym is waaaayy to boring) and because I have some time right now to actually try.
My experience is that, first, it's actually fun. There is always some competition, when you workout 20min, you really workout 20min, unlike when you hit the gym.
Second, I'm lucky I guess. The place where I go, the guys have all majored in exercise physio, and understand training very well. They're aware that the best training for a sport, is sport specific. They won't tell you that CF will make you a better runner if you're already a 32min 10km runner, but they will say that it may help overall fitness if you're in the 50min range, and they may have a point (keep in mind that 32min is still amateurish for a 10km...it's not elite by any means).
Third, you'd be surprised how well trained triathletes would do at CF. Except for days with super heavy reps (that I just avoid because I don't want to bulk up one bit), all the other days, if there is 'as many rep as possible' (amrap) for a given time, or X reps and go for time, where you tap into more endurance stuff, LT etc...I always have more reps or lower times than anyone (and I'm far from a big guy, at 140lbs)...
That said, I'll go on for a bit, because I'm enjoying it :)
My experience is that, first, it's actually fun. There is always some competition, when you workout 20min, you really workout 20min, unlike when you hit the gym.
Second, I'm lucky I guess. The place where I go, the guys have all majored in exercise physio, and understand training very well. They're aware that the best training for a sport, is sport specific. They won't tell you that CF will make you a better runner if you're already a 32min 10km runner, but they will say that it may help overall fitness if you're in the 50min range, and they may have a point (keep in mind that 32min is still amateurish for a 10km...it's not elite by any means).
Third, you'd be surprised how well trained triathletes would do at CF. Except for days with super heavy reps (that I just avoid because I don't want to bulk up one bit), all the other days, if there is 'as many rep as possible' (amrap) for a given time, or X reps and go for time, where you tap into more endurance stuff, LT etc...I always have more reps or lower times than anyone (and I'm far from a big guy, at 140lbs)...
That said, I'll go on for a bit, because I'm enjoying it :)
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Rappstar]
[ In reply to ]
Last edited by:
XFitRunner: Jul 21, 09 11:23
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Karaya0321]
[ In reply to ]
You almost lost me after you implication that Marines are lazy...after noticing that you served I'll give you a pass :) I have actually read studies that a crossfit-like program actually better prepares soldiers for the riggors of modern combat than does an XX mile hump. I am sure you are aware better than I the injuries associated with these heavy humps. I am guessing these are the reasons that the Marines, SEALs, LEO, fire fighter and MMA fighters use CF.
Your level of fitness is obviously superb. While you "Fight Gone Bad" score (nice score by the way) may have gone down, I am guessing your strength (assuming you followed the program) went up. Now as a triathlete maybe you don't care about your total strength. Totally understandable as I would understand that from anyone on an endurance forum. You are in a sport and you have to specialize in that sport! Those that workout without application are just doing it for health or to look good. I know that doesnt apply tou people here. CF would not argue otherwise. Most CFers dont CF just for the sake of CF (although CF is a growing sport) but do it for sports application. In fact CF puts sport at the top of its Theoretical Heirarchy of Function. So, yes, absolutely specialize in your sport!
Perhaps this entire debate is tainted by the word "CrossFit"? Imagine a triathlete taking their current program and greatly reducing the LSD and increasing the interval training and incorperating complex, anerobic, multi joint strenght training...is it possible that this would create a better triathlete? THat is the real question regardless of whether you prescribe to CF and CFE or not this is an interesting idea. Let's not be so quick to dismiss it.
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Rappstar]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [XFitRunner]
[ In reply to ]
Why won't this thread JUST DIE?!?!?