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Cramping in Syracuse!
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ST'ers I need help! Raced Syracuse Sunday, 50-54 AG. Swam :35 something, biked 2:38 something and ran 2:00: something.......auuuuugh!

Background, first HIM in 6 years but fit, strong and had the miles and bricks in, shooting for a 1:45 run split. Training bricks included some 8-9 miles stints at 7 min. pace within 11-12 mile runs so an 8 min paced seemed achievable. My right foot started cramping about 30 minutes into the swim. All was well on the bike. I wasn't riding with a PT but have trained with one and maintained PE at about 85% FTP as planned. Consumed 44 oz. Perform and 1 gel with water, about 580 cal.'s as I mixed it No indication on the bike that issues would ensue.

By the time I had run across the lawn within the park and up the short hill I new it would be a looooong run. My right hammy, and sometimes the left, would seize up like a baseball under the skin each time I tried to pick up the pace or at the start of an up or down hill segment, which is just about the entire course! So run, stretch, walk, run, walk backwards, stretch, run, hobble...and so on for 2 hours while everyone runs by. Consumed maybe 4 gels, water and some Perform plus 2 salt tabs along the way.

My first thought was an electrolyte imbalance, second was lack of specific fitness (hill work), and third, over stressed hammies on the bike leg. Maybe a combination of all 3. I just find it odd that of the 1000's of athletes participating I seemed to be the only 'walker' dealing with leg cramps. Monday hammies were very tight and a little sore, but there is no acute injury.

Any insight is appreciated.

M
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [mharris] [ In reply to ]
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over stressed hammies on the bike leg.

The answer is probably related to this ^. Many run problems are really bike problems in disguise.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [mharris] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds light on nutrition on the bike...
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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ThanksT-B.

Overstressing the hammiest suggests underutilizing the glutes, I think? Any thoughts on this? I didn't find the bike course that difficult, actually enjoyed the hill and had ridden that section once before in training and as a simulation in preparation.

If the issue is activating the glutes more, and the hamstrings less, how is this achieved/controlled?

M
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [bmas] [ In reply to ]
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Race weight 70kg.
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [mharris] [ In reply to ]
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My thoughts?

I think you're over-thinking the problem with all of this hammie/ glute activation/ stimulation. Just slow down a little bit more on the bike.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Yikes! Slow down on the bike! If it were only that easy ; )

I think I'd prefer the highly technical, do this exercise, eat this, take that, raise your seat explanation.

lol, you're probably right!

M
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [mharris] [ In reply to ]
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Skip the water and take in more sports drink. Also, 44 oz of perform and 1 gel seems really light for nutrition. Granted, I'm much heavier than you, but that's less than I take in for 1 hour on the bike in a half.

It's also hard to say you rode at a PE of 85%...as former PT user, you know this. You may have been above.
Last edited by: KAlber: Jun 24, 14 19:06
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [mharris] [ In reply to ]
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85% on the bike is too high

You were already stressed from the swim and then rode at the very top of the acceptable limit, which appears to be too high for your current fitness level.

I've done that many times before and never with good results.

jaretj
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [mharris] [ In reply to ]
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mharris wrote:
My right foot started cramping about 30 minutes into the swim. All was well on the bike.

Do you think the cramping on the swim was a pre-cursor to what was going to happen ?

Buddy of mine, has a lot of miles in his biking legs and is an ultra runner.
He started to cramp on the swim, like you.
He did cramp a bit on the bike so he went slow, real slow. He would normally bike at 140BPM, he rode at 125.
He cramped up all over in the run.

So does the swim have something to do with it ?
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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85% is too high for a 2:38 bike. OK for a 2:20 bike, but 18 more minutes at that intensity gets you up to a TSS of 180. If you want to run well, probably need to stay closer to a more conservative 160.

How even was your pacing? Was your average power pretty even 1st to the 2nd half. Ideally you should be within maybe 3-5 watts.... even with the big climb early on looking at the course profile. How much time did you spend above FTP?

Cramping really is a weird thing. I think it's part fitness, part mental and part bio-chemical. I think low electrolytes can be a trigger, but it's never a cause. The mental part can be stress, tension, anxiety I think. Normal, but everyones response is different.


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http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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You replied to me, but I think you meant to reply to the OP.

The reason I commented was because the OP talked about cramping first on the swim.
I agree with all of the 85% is too high, fitness may not be there........but I wonder what part of this cramping on the swim plays

I am curious how far the OP swims per session. I noticed, way back when, I would cramp at the end of swim sessions, but I was doing nothing but short sessions (2200m or so)

My buddy cramped on the swim and he only swims about 2000m per session.
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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I too used to crap sometimes swimming in workouts at the end. But I was swimming 6-8k scy per week back then and overall training load was 9-12 hours. I'm about double that this season... and surprise surprise, no cramping.

Heck I used to cramp in Olympic distance races pretty bad. My last 70.3 I even went out like a man possessed in the first mile and still didn't have any issues later in the race. I even ran 20s faster in the first 10k than I did at my best Olympic run last year. I also drank less in that 13.1 that I have in some Olympic runs where I cramped.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [KAlber] [ In reply to ]
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KAlber, got it! I kind of minimized the sugar because I've had stomach issues before in Oly's on the run when I intake too much. I need to find the right balance to sustain energy levels. Interestingly, I found a podcast today that discussed cramping and suggested that electrolyte issues might manifest themselves with cramping in both legs simultaneously, hamstrings to calves, rather than a single muscle which is more likely the result of pushing it beyond capacity. Kind of what Tri-banter said.
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
mharris wrote:
My right foot started cramping about 30 minutes into the swim. All was well on the bike.


Do you think the cramping on the swim was a pre-cursor to what was going to happen ?

Buddy of mine, has a lot of miles in his biking legs and is an ultra runner.
He started to cramp on the swim, like you.
He did cramp a bit on the bike so he went slow, real slow. He would normally bike at 140BPM, he rode at 125.
He cramped up all over in the run.

So does the swim have something to do with it ?

I don't think the swim contributed to hamstring cramps, I can get a foot cramp just doing yoga poses, just something that happens occasionally on long swims, probably from pointing the toes too forcefully.
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the help guys! I wanted to get another race behind me before responding to your last thoughts. OLY last weekend with no cramping issues even after pounding the bike at a greater level of effort.

I'll reply to motoguy's jaretj’s and marcag’s last posts here.


Swim yardage is relatively low, 6000yds/wk avg with (3) 1.25 mile open water swims prior to Syracuse and did get foot cramps in one of those, not unusual for me though, abates completly by the transition run. My overall trianing volume has been close to motoguy's prior years, 9hrs/wk building to 12 hrs/week in late spring, not huge, and I think now, not enough bike volume for long course, regardless of FTP. I’ve kind of gotten use to OLY an Sprint distance training levels over the last few years.

I planned to ride 85% FTP per Coogan, but maybe that was too aggressive a goal on 100-120 miles/week biking no matter how consistent training had been over the past 6 months. As for the hill, I might have burned some matches there. Part of my plan was to push the hill at closer to 90% FTP then recover over the descents, but without a PT or HRM, I based it soley on effort and may have pushed closer to 90- 95% FTP. I hadn’t thought about TSS and the how the time component affects the equation, I focused solely on % of FTP. Maybe hydration and carbs were on the low side, however I did ‘drink to thirst’, and never felt for a lack of energy.

After considering the helpful input here and turning it over a few times, I think I just didn't have the bike volume in me to be able to run after the bike effort I was determined to put out. Could have either biked or ran well on the day, but not both. Alas! I have one more chance - the Incredoubleman is fast approaching, so.......now I'm curious on how to back into % of FTP based on a rational TSS value as the starting point. Coogan has a few examples for different type events, but nothing really relavent AG long course.


Any thoughts?



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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [mharris] [ In reply to ]
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So run, stretch, walk, run, walk backwards, stretch, run, hobble...and so on

And you lost only 15 minutes on your goal time? I say good job.


_____________

"Some guys they just give up living, and start dying little by little piece by piece. Some guys come home from work and wash up, then go racin' in the street." Bruce Springsteen
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Re: Cramping in Syracuse! [Bigcreek] [ In reply to ]
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Bigcreek wrote:
So run, stretch, walk, run, walk backwards, stretch, run, hobble...and so on

And you lost only 15 minutes on your goal time? I say good job.

Thanks Bigcreek, I hadn't thought about it thaty way. I must have really smoked the flat part, all 4 times!
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