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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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Get a real coach, not an armchair coach.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
Swim less bike lots more. Then bike more.


There are a ton of triathletes in the same boat, struggling to get the times they want, they work hard on their bike and run, but have plateaued yet continue to give the swim little attention. The only triathletes that I know that are reasonably successful, despite being shit swimmers are elite runners/cyclists ex-Olympians etc. if you want to go anywhere with your triathlon, you have to at some point address your swimming. As m--n says easy 5mins to lose on the swim, going to take you a lot longer to lose that on the run. Also something else to consider with the swim, something that I only realised this season, is how much the swim can affect a poor swimmer. I have a swimming background and hit T1 feeling fresh, it has little effect on my bike or run. But I regularly bike faster than guys who are much quicker than me in training - they can't swim... I had one bloke telling me he had a shit run because he overcooked it on the swim....
Last edited by: zedzded: Jun 16, 17 23:30
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [Mike Ricci] [ In reply to ]
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Mike Ricci wrote:
Lots of n=1 on the replies, and that gives you some good ideas. Here are my general thoughts:
1. Swim frequency will help you. 4x per week: One day of 2k straight, pretty fast. 1-2 day(s) of Masters or 2 swims with 2000-2500 main sets, and one easy recovery day (after long run is perfect). This is about 3 hours / 4 swims, lots of quality.
2. Ride hard, ride more. Make this 4.5-5 hours per week. 1 day of VO2 - 30x30" like someone mentioned of 15x1' and/or build to 3x5'. 15' max and the entire workout can be done in 50 minutes. 1 day of LT intervals - 40k efforts - build to 45' of these. Long ride should involve tempo or HIM riding - it hurts, but you can keep going. Another easy ride would be good.
3. Running - long run - keep it to 10 miles and throw in something longer, easier every 3rd week. Tempo efforts in these long runs would help - something like 2x3 miles or something like that. One day of speed would be good - 10x1' fast - 5k pace. A few easy bricks off the harder efforts - even 20-30' would be great. That's about 2.5-3 hours of running. Plenty for you to improve across the board.

I agree that great swim fitness will set up a great bike, as fitness rolls down hill. Same for the bike - better fitness here will let you have a great run too. Keep it fun, mix it up and keep challenging yourself. You're on your way.

Mike

Thanks Mike and others for clarifying the importance of swim fitness. Honestly I usually come out of the water feeling pretty trashed so I recognize that swim fitness will carry over through my entire race. Monty and others who commented specifically and at length about intensity- thanks. I've had suspicions that I needed to be doing more and your thoughts really confirm that. Coming from a running background my training philosophy was always to have 2 days a week of intensity to avoid injury and I erroneously applied this overall to Tri training. It makes sense, especially with swimming and biking that I need to hit it hard every day. And sleep more. Thanks to those who reminded me of that. It's been easy in the past to grind myself down by limiting sleep. Now to develop a better plan armed with all this info...

"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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Bike is the low hanging fruit.

I'd place a decent sized bet that if you can track & train your FTP those 20 minutes are there for the taking.

A smart trainer (eg kickr) + zwift/traineroad will really help.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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I hear EPO works wonders.....
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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I'd focus on the "free" stuff, first. By free, I mean things that don't take any additional fitness. Tires/tubes have been mentioned, as has kit and bike fit/body position, but I'm surprised nobody has yet asked how your transitions are.

Getting 20 minutes of fitness-based improvements without increasing your current 10 hours a week schedule is a lot to ask. Can it be done? Sure. But if you can shave 8 minutes off your time with the "free" stuff, you're only looking for 12 minutes of fitness based improvements. I'm no professional triathlon coach, but I think that would be easier to come by than 20. ;)
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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You don't have a power meter, but you can still use trainerroad virtual power. Get the wahoo RPM Cadence and RPM Speed sensors. Cheap, like $65 or so. Virtual power I'm sure is not perfect but for me the readings have been very consistent and I made what I feel to be huge gains in FTP as a result. Tons of trainer work and you can see exactly what you're producing.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [jeremyebrock] [ In reply to ]
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jeremyebrock wrote:
You don't have a power meter, but you can still use trainerroad virtual power. Get the wahoo RPM Cadence and RPM Speed sensors. Cheap, like $65 or so. Virtual power I'm sure is not perfect but for me the readings have been very consistent and I made what I feel to be huge gains in FTP as a result. Tons of trainer work and you can see exactly what you're producing.

I've got the garmin speed and cadence sensors- do you know if those will work?

"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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I think it does but you want to check trainerroad.com to see what devices work. I'm sure they've got a compatibility guide.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [johnnybefit] [ In reply to ]
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LMAO!
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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How about shaving?

Do you shave your legs and maybe your arms? That's worth a few minutes.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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2x what Jeremye said. Virtual power in TrainerRoad has been extremely helpful for me. Obviously it is better if you can race with power too, but virtual is fantastic for teaching you how to truly go hard.

I don't care how the numbers correlate with real power as long as they are consistent. I found I was totally underbiking and had a tendency to ease off if I stopped looking at the power. Super helpful. I love my coach (Zack Weber at T4 Endurance) but it is another expense. TrainerRoad is like $10 a month.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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What's your height and weight?

Any one asked if you were sick recently?
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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LazyEP wrote:
. That's what the off-season is for...train your weaknesses...

Exactly! It's mystifying how many people don't do that. It's the opposite, they're strong on the bike, so bike lots... perhaps you should swim??
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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1. How much disposable income do you have to put into achieving these goals? ;)
2. Can you post a pic / descripition of your current bike setup? Or use this and see what it suggest: http://aeroweenie.com/aero-assistant.html
3. Have you listened to Tower26 podcast, looked into their new online swim training platform? (https://www.obstri.com/tower26/)
4. Are you taking any "off days" in your current schedule, if so that would be the first thing I would scratch and start incorporating an active "recovery" day rather than a complete off day.
5. Depending on what the answer is to #1, I would highly recommend getting a coach. Bit biased but I might know someone that is able to help you achieve your goals ;)

Right now it looks like you are doing:
2hrs of swimming
5-6hrs of riding
and 3.5-4.5hrs of running

So maybe a bit more than 10hrs a week?

-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Coached By: Scott DeFilippis
Team RWB Ambassador | Deals & Discounts from Sponsors
Supported by: Clever Training| Kiwami Tri | Spinlister| Precision Hydration | ISM| Cervelo | CeramicSpeed
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [nbaffaro] [ In reply to ]
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nbaffaro wrote:
What's your height and weight?

Any one asked if you were sick recently?

I'm 5'10" and157. Not in "you look sick" territory, but heading that way. That comes when I'm about 5lbs lighter and at peak fitness.

Aaron and Jeremye, thanks for the info in trainerroad, it's something I've been thinking about and your feedback on virtual power has sealed the deal for me. I checked their site and it is compatible with the garmin speed and cadence sensors; I'll just need to get an Ant+ dongle for my laptop.

Zed- I did spend the off season swimming 5 days a week and have seen some significant improvements as a result of that and some lessons. I haven't quite built up to a 1k yard time trial, but am at 800 yds at this point. I'm averaging 1:32 for that effort, which would translate to about 33ish for a HIM swim. Still more work to do there, I agree.

"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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splatt wrote:
nbaffaro wrote:
What's your height and weight?

Any one asked if you were sick recently?


I'm 5'10" and157. Not in "you look sick" territory, but heading that way. That comes when I'm about 5lbs lighter and at peak fitness.

Aaron and Jeremye, thanks for the info in trainerroad, it's something I've been thinking about and your feedback on virtual power has sealed the deal for me. I checked their site and it is compatible with the garmin speed and cadence sensors; I'll just need to get an Ant+ dongle for my laptop.

Zed- I did spend the off season swimming 5 days a week and have seen some significant improvements as a result of that and some lessons. I haven't quite built up to a 1k yard time trial, but am at 800 yds at this point. I'm averaging 1:32 for that effort, which would translate to about 33ish for a HIM swim. Still more work to do there, I agree.
If you use a Garmin watch or bike computer you may already have a Garmin Ant+ dongle. many of their units do/did come with an ANT+ USB dongle for syncing your watch/computer. This and the speed/cadence sensors are all you need to connect your bike to Zwift or Trainerroad.

What trainer do you currently have?
I've been using a KurtKinetic road machine extensively with Zwift for a little under a year. It's made a big difference to my cycling. I found it much harder to do work on the trainer before I started using Zwift. I could do a 2x20 threshold session just looking at my bike computer and bsing intensity on HR but it's a miserable and boring experience. I found the tediousness was enough to prevent me doing consistent training that way. Last autum and winter I started using Zwift a lot and found it much easier to spend time on the trainer. It's also now possible to base sessions on power which is a major advantage. If you've space to leave the trainer set-up it's also easier to fit a session in if you're tight for time, as compared with getting out on the road.
Having said all that, I still prefer getting outside and the trainer will never replace that, but the combination works well.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of good stuff in these replies, so I will just add an additional vote for increasing your swim fitness... and you will have to determine how to do that being so time constrained. As has been mentioned already, swim intensity is important as you can hammer every swim without much injury risk. You have done periods of swim focus before and it helped, keep working these in to your schedule periodically. Its not just about swimming faster than 35 minutes, but getting out of the water fresher and with a better group of athletes. However, if swimming is the most time constraining training for you because you have to drive to the pool and change clothes etc. then I would say do fewer swims that are a bit longer, with solid purpose to them.

Also, if perhaps running is the easiest thing time wise for you to fit in as you can do it right out of your front door, then I also vote for maintaining frequency and consistency of running; not only to build fitness but to help with race day execution. It would be training your strength. For the time challenged triathlete it can provide a lot of fitness and race benefit for the amount of time invested (especially if it is running right out of the door without having to drive somewhere). And it can be done in the dark or low light. Even the most time constrained person can generally fit in an extra hour or so of running each week.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I come from a running background and this is true: you need to learn to suffer on the bike.

I am learning to do so right now and have been experiencing some very nice breakthroughs in my cycling.


Love the Pain!

Quito-Ecuador
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [mpo_tri] [ In reply to ]
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Another thing to consider is that you may not need to come up with the perfect "10 hours per week - balanced triathlon training schedule" . Because that may not fit your needs. Instead you may need to think of how do I best spend the 30 hours that are available across a three week period. That could give you the flexibility needed to emphasize different sports throughout that cycle: some weeks bike more and swim less, or another emphasize swimming when your legs are beat up from longer runs for example. You are self coached, and are doing well that way, but seem to be looking for some alternative ideas. You may benefit from not thinking about only 7 day routine training blocks.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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Hire a coach! Grn Mchn Multisports just helped an athlete punch his ticket to Chattanooga 70.3 for Worlds with a 4:32 in his 2nd ever triathlon and first ever 70.3 inRaleigh :)
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [splatt] [ In reply to ]
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Just replying to monitor the responses to this thread since my 70.3 PR is slightly slower than you (5:04:xx) and I never once considered shaving 20 min off that time as a possibility. I'm curious to see what advice you get here.

FWIW, I'm 45 years old, 5'10", and get down to 135-140 lbs. as my race weight. My 70.3 swim and bike times are almost identical to yours but your run is about 10 min faster.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [elburrito99] [ In reply to ]
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I've gone from 6.45 4 years ago to 4.40 in May, training around 8 - 10 hours a week aged 45. I have 2 kids, so limited as to how much I can train, I just try and make sure each training hour is quality. I can swim, so can get away with not heaps of swimming. Running is my weakness, so trying to focus on that at the moment.
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Re: Coach me to shave 20 minutes off my HIM! [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
I've gone from 6.45 4 years ago to 4.40 in May, training around 8 - 10 hours a week aged 45. I have 2 kids, so limited as to how much I can train, I just try and make sure each training hour is quality. I can swim, so can get away with not heaps of swimming. Running is my weakness, so trying to focus on that at the moment.


This is encouraging to read. Are you self coached zed? Did you use any training platform for cycling? Swim question: I've had my swim vids critiqued here with the feedback being I have decent form, just need to work on getting faster- what's the best swim workout to achieve swim speed? I've been mainly doing 50 and 100yd repeats. Am I on the right track or should I be doing more tempo/ HIM pace intervals?

"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."
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