This argument seems, to me, to be cut and dry. What's more important in swimming, cardio or technique. I believe that technique is a heck of a lot more important that being in swimming shape, especially for a triathlete. However, I was arguing this with a D1 swimmer friend and they were quite convinced that being in shape was THE most important thing; and apparently her coach agrees with that stance. My counter argument to them is that anyone who is a D1 swimmer already has refined their stroke to the point where extensive stroke drills would be less productive than hardcore sets. I've had my butt kicked by 250 pound whales and 10 year old girls alike (I can't believe I just admitted that) and the only homogenous factor in all of these butt-kickings was a perfect stroke. What are your thoughts on the stroke vs. cardio argument?
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Re: Cardio VS. Technique in swimming [iheartfestina]
[ In reply to ]
Your D1 Swimmer friend is young and only knows hardcore sets 6 days a week (and forgets the drills he/she does at the start of the season). Ask me that question when I was in school and i would've said the same thing. That was before I saw your average triathlete in the water...hahahah!
As a 'former' D1 swimmer I know that technique is the most important factor (and most limiting for triathletes) in swimming. I can swim once or twice a week (and be a shell of my former 'swimmer' self) and still do ok in the swim, even though my 'swimming shape' is horrible. Swim fitness is relative...what determines your swim split in a triathlon is 90% technique.
As a 'former' D1 swimmer I know that technique is the most important factor (and most limiting for triathletes) in swimming. I can swim once or twice a week (and be a shell of my former 'swimmer' self) and still do ok in the swim, even though my 'swimming shape' is horrible. Swim fitness is relative...what determines your swim split in a triathlon is 90% technique.
Re: Cardio VS. Technique in swimming [iheartfestina]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Cardio VS. Technique in swimming [iheartfestina]
[ In reply to ]
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=swimming&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=ironguide&mh=25
Re: Cardio VS. Technique in swimming [eganski]
[ In reply to ]
Yep,
Had someone tell me that stroke count was not correlated with swim speed. Not at all cited the anecdotal evidence of some lady swimmer, Haley Cope maybe, threw in Janet Evans. Then brought out the big gun of an actual study of troke counts in the european champs and the olympics. Sure enough in those races there was no trend.
However that is confined to a very narrow band of swimmers, it is all they know. However when you go the local swim center. You can take it as a given that the guy taking 40 strokes per length is slower than the one taking 20, who in turn us slower than the one taking 15. Wakl into any masters class in the nation with a wide spread of talent and it will be immediatey obvious.
The point being, your environment colors your vision. The college D1 swimmer doesn't see the range of swim technique that we do, when he talks better technique he is thinknig about minor improvements between already elite swimmers. So to him it can go either way.
For the rest of us, the swimming proletariat, it matters a whole bunch.
Had someone tell me that stroke count was not correlated with swim speed. Not at all cited the anecdotal evidence of some lady swimmer, Haley Cope maybe, threw in Janet Evans. Then brought out the big gun of an actual study of troke counts in the european champs and the olympics. Sure enough in those races there was no trend.
However that is confined to a very narrow band of swimmers, it is all they know. However when you go the local swim center. You can take it as a given that the guy taking 40 strokes per length is slower than the one taking 20, who in turn us slower than the one taking 15. Wakl into any masters class in the nation with a wide spread of talent and it will be immediatey obvious.
The point being, your environment colors your vision. The college D1 swimmer doesn't see the range of swim technique that we do, when he talks better technique he is thinknig about minor improvements between already elite swimmers. So to him it can go either way.
For the rest of us, the swimming proletariat, it matters a whole bunch.
Re: Cardio VS. Technique in swimming [caleb]
[ In reply to ]
It's all relative, caleb...
for me, i'm a 52 minute Ironman swimmer on 2, maybe 3 swim practices a week. So at that point, i'm 'barely' fit in terms of swim fitness compared to what I was (just faster, relative to others because of my background/technique).
However, if I swam 9 times a week like the good old days, I would probably be around 47 or 48. The difference is found in my level of fitness, my 'cardio' level.
Sorry if i'm not articulating that well...there's a good show on National Geographic.
for me, i'm a 52 minute Ironman swimmer on 2, maybe 3 swim practices a week. So at that point, i'm 'barely' fit in terms of swim fitness compared to what I was (just faster, relative to others because of my background/technique).
However, if I swam 9 times a week like the good old days, I would probably be around 47 or 48. The difference is found in my level of fitness, my 'cardio' level.
Sorry if i'm not articulating that well...there's a good show on National Geographic.
Re: Cardio VS. Technique in swimming [eganski]
[ In reply to ]
But, you clearly have a very efficient stroke to swim a 52 IM. If you were swimming 20,000 yds a week you pick up a few percent. there are plenty of IMers who are swimming a lot more than you who couldn't swim less than 1:15.
Without an efficient stroke the extra yards won't count for much.
_________________
Dick
Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
Without an efficient stroke the extra yards won't count for much.
_________________
Dick
Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
Re: Cardio VS. Technique in swimming [iheartfestina]
[ In reply to ]
This one is easy to answer since I just returned home from the pool after my first swim in... well let's say that it has been a while. I am a good swimmer but not in very good shape rigt now, hence my warm up was fast turning easy effort 1:20 100's. This was all on technique since I still remember how to swim. Now the rest of my workout was poor, turnning 1:30's-1:40's with 30 sec rest. Not exactly D1 material.
The moral of the story? Both. Without technique you cannot turn a 1:20 100s, and I don't care if you are the guy that set the WR in the marathon (find me someone with better cardio and I will use them as the example). However, if you wish to hang with the big dogs you have to be in swim shape (not just cardio) for more thna the first 100 yds.
IMHO I think that the longer the race the more your technique come into play. you can soak up a lot of stroke error with brute strength over shorter distances, but you start to fall behind the longer you are in the water.
This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.
The moral of the story? Both. Without technique you cannot turn a 1:20 100s, and I don't care if you are the guy that set the WR in the marathon (find me someone with better cardio and I will use them as the example). However, if you wish to hang with the big dogs you have to be in swim shape (not just cardio) for more thna the first 100 yds.
IMHO I think that the longer the race the more your technique come into play. you can soak up a lot of stroke error with brute strength over shorter distances, but you start to fall behind the longer you are in the water.
This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.
Re: Cardio VS. Technique in swimming [iheartfestina]
[ In reply to ]
Better technique "always" wins. I know this from personal experience. At the D1 level, stroke efficiency is all pretty good and hard to differentiate from fitness. (also pretty good). But strokes are so ingrained into the athletes that the only thing that can be changed is fitness (not just cardio, also strength)
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Swimming Workout of the Day:
Favourite Swim Sets:
2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Re: Cardio VS. Technique in swimming [iheartfestina]
[ In reply to ]
For 95% of all triathletes, technique will be the biggest factor that limits their development in the water. Lets face it, go to any pool and you'll see some swimmers practicig swimming and doing it well and then the triathletes practicing swimming poorly and doing an excellent job at it.
But a triathlete or swimmer does not have to sacrifice cardio development at the expense of technique development, they, IMO, go hand in hand. You can work on technique and develop cardio swim fitness. Do a 1500m long drill set on extremely short rests, something like 15x100 done as 25kick, 50drill and 25 swim on :10 or :15 rest. You develop technique and build swim fitness. You need some conditioning to be able to swim technique effectively and you need to technique to work as efficiently as possible when swimming sets.
From the triathletes I have coached at masters and witnesses at the various pools I have swam at, I think way too many triathletes shut down their brain when they swim and just try to hammer laps out instead of thinking about catch, elbow placement, hip roll etc while they are swimming their sets.
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta
But a triathlete or swimmer does not have to sacrifice cardio development at the expense of technique development, they, IMO, go hand in hand. You can work on technique and develop cardio swim fitness. Do a 1500m long drill set on extremely short rests, something like 15x100 done as 25kick, 50drill and 25 swim on :10 or :15 rest. You develop technique and build swim fitness. You need some conditioning to be able to swim technique effectively and you need to technique to work as efficiently as possible when swimming sets.
From the triathletes I have coached at masters and witnesses at the various pools I have swam at, I think way too many triathletes shut down their brain when they swim and just try to hammer laps out instead of thinking about catch, elbow placement, hip roll etc while they are swimming their sets.
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta
Technique. However, good swim technique is not a one stroke style fits all proposition. Everyone's physiology is different, and a couple years of hard senior age group swimming will take a basic understanding of stroke and teach you how to take generic freestyle technique and as you put yourself under very high stress conditions, temper that stroke and optimize it into something that's best suited to your body size and type. And once you're into that stroke customization stage, stroke technique tweaking involves coach yelling at you to straighten out your catch and stop dropping water at the finish at the same time when you're holding 100s on the 1:10 or 1:15.