I suggest asking the TR guys on their TrainerRoad thread. They're great at providing feedback.

It's normal. I have the same issue. The general consensus is that any VO2 max stuff above 110% is incredibly specific to that person. Some people crush those workouts, some can't maintain it at all, despite identical FTPs. It's a physiological thing. They address this issue a few times in that thread, one time specifically by me. Search that thread for "120%" and you'll find it.

This could be incredibly elementary, but it was described as either "pushing up" your FTP with sweet spot/threshold intervals OR by "pulling up" yoru ftp with VO2 max stuff. If your FTP is already sufficiently high for your VO2 max, you're gunna have a really hard time maintaining.

Or maybe he said that just to make me feel better. lol.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Workouts based on percentage of FTP are generally built for all around cyclists and not triathletes. Everyone's natural power curve is different, and not everyone trains like an all around cyclist. So if you're naturally someone who favors long steady efforts instead of more anaerobic, and then you also train with more focus on long steady efforts, then of course the VO2 max stuff is going to be hard.

I'm just the opposite of you. I have to bump up my power targets for anything under 2 minutes because I'm built for more anaerobic efforts, and I also train that way as a road racer. But when it comes to long steady efforts I have to be more conservative with my power targets.

So bottom line, don't be afraid to adjust your power targets a little to better suit your current fitness and your goals. It's not a one size fits all workout and triathletes generally don't train like an all around cyclist for which most workouts are designed around.

If you are doing one of their training plans, you will by design be getting progressively more fatigued between recovery weeks. That could be your issue. I almost always crack at some point on the last couple workouts before a rest week.

Also, if you have been training only for steady state sub threshold efforts, (forever or just for a base period), your first forays into higher intensity levels can be a bit of slap in the face. They are hard and hurt in a much different way than longer efforts, even if those efforts are hard in terms of their own time/power numbers. So along with the physical adjustment, there can be a bit of a psychological adjustment period as well.

Some people have different short power abilities than others. I believe that is the point of the whole "4DP/FTP is Dead" thing. Those short hard 120% intervals are easier for a sprinter than they are for a true slowtwitch guy.

You should consult an expert but I have always been of the impression that generally it is better to do those VO2 max type intervals as hard as you can, even if you can not hit the target power, rather than totally bail as soon as you can not hit the target. So, dialing down the intensity is OK if that is what it takes to get through the workout.

You're not the first to have this problem. Use the search function.

This is one reason why the 20min FTP test should be used as general guide. If you are having trouble with the prescription, then adjust based on current fitness, personal physiology and skill set. A few things
1) VO2 intervals for you would be capped @ 290w if you are talking 120% (so 300+ seems too high?)
2) If you can't hit scripted duration of intervals, shorten them ... you can even add the number of intervals to the script so that the amount of "work" equals the same amount of time, you juts need more intervals to get there
3) Some days you juts can;t hit the high end of the target zone you are suppose to hit. With my athletes i encourage them that the target is a particular zone or window of power NOT a number

When you choose a one size fits all program it does not leave room for individuality or adjustment to your specific background or physiology.

Cheers,

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

I was in the same boat. I just lowered my FTP. I can still get stronger with a lower FTP rather than a high number that I can't hold intervals on resulting in tears and fears. The benefit was now I can do the high volume bike (not as blown-up) instead of the low volume bike.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Don't worry about it. Just lower the workout percentage and get it done.

I have to be really rested to nail the hard trainerroad VO2 workouts. Even then sometimes it's still necessary to lower the percentage. Everyday is different, and the 110+% intervals magnify this.

i have simular issues - and i do believe that 15 years of IM type training has caused me to simply not have as much ability to go annerobic to the extreeme


i just started using TR - and it has been kicking my ass with the above threashold workouts

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http://www.clevetriclub.com

rob reddy

I will just add a personal observation. I do a lot of spirited group rides and some bike racing so in season, 120%+ of my FTP is a fairly common effort. I have no trouble at all mustering that, even repeatedly, in June, July and August. But every year during base training, when I have not done an all out sprint for months and sweet spot is about as hard as I go, when those 120% intervals finally show up in the plan, they are hard, especially as the set goes on.

As noted, what you describe is pretty common, and especially common this time of year any cyclist and especially for one new to those types of efforts.

As I mentioned in another thread, it's less about the numbers you're hitting.....or not hitting, and more about achieving the appropriate physiological response you're targeting.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

bingo.
you can either do that by 1) shortening up the interval from 3min to 2:30, or 2) reduce overall workout % to something more realistic.

I think you should decrease your FTP number by 5-10%. FTP is your theoretical 1 hour power- but it is basically a number to set zones- If the zones are too high (and you are saying they are)- you are over-reaching, you should decrease them across the board by changing FTP.
I know that you say that you can hit the sweet spot efforts- But they are likely not really sweet spot if if you cannot hit the higher efforts. They are likely more like threshold efforts. So you are fueling your efforts with more glycogen and also using more type II muscle fiber to produce the efforts.
Notch it down and reap the benefits- Training needs to be sustainable and repeatable. Don't get caught up in the ego of what you FTP is-

I generally lower the VO2 workouts by 10% before I start. While I probably could hit those numbers at 100% I would be trashed for the next days workouts. Not worth it to me. Now, if I were alot younger.....(and not as wise).

I'm the same - can hit V02 workouts all day long, and will push well over 120% if its 1min intervals or less. And I'm a triathlete primarily, so I don't know how that works. Sprint triathlete but still. Now, 2x 20min 'sweet spot' intervals absolutely kill me. Often will dial it down for longer intervals.

That's the sort of thing that can happen (especially at higher intensities) when you mistakenly treat my original training levels as prescriptive, not descriptive (it's safer with iLevels from WKO4).

Others have provided their $0.02, but I would caution you against shortening level 5 intervals too much, as you will end up targeting different physiological adaptations. Better to stick with 4+ min efforts and work your way up to higher intensities and greater total volume (e.g., from 4 x 4 min to 6 x 5 min at the highest power you can manage).

Shortening rest intervals down to 1.5 min or less will also make the demands more aerobic, but won't necessarily make it any easier to achieve your goals (as recovery from such efforts is multifactorial, with short rests compromising power too much during the work periods).

FWIW, my standard approach has always been Hickson intervals at the highest intensity I can manage on the ergometer and still finish the 6th effort most of the time (i.e., roughly 3 d out of four). For me, that ends up being ~113% of FTP, but my wife used to do them at ~125%. YM, of course, MV.

1. FTP is not, and never has been, properly defined as 1(.0000000.....) h power.

2. PPP: They are called levels and not zones for a reason. (As the OP's experience aptly demonstrates.)

When I started with TR, my FTP was around 200W . 120% workouts were killing me. Same when my FTP increased to 250W and now to 280W. My plan is to reach 300W.

To progress, you need to suffer. Just trying to motivate you :) My strategy is instead of decreasing FTP, I decrease the workout (i.e 1 hour instead of 1:15) ...

Personally, I use the FTP test as a marker for fitness and have a series of interval workouts (~7 levels for each) of VO2 max, threshold and sweet spot largely spanning the zone and skewed over upper end. I start out at level 1 and move up once I have completed it 2X. Not textbook and I may be compromising a little early, but it has worked great after my typical end of season layoff to get geared back up and successfully hit workouts. The progression goes relatively quick and you will fail a few times, but that is to be expected.

General q. Do 30 sec or 1 min on/off vo2+ have their place in triathlon short course racing? I do sprints primarily and I swear sweet spot work hurts me more than any other workout.

It's amazing to me how many times I have seen you say this over the years, how useful it is to know, and how many people still think you're a jerk because you use minimal verbosity.

I think the variable is a persons work stress. I walk on concrete floors all day with 5 pounds of keys and steel toed boots on. I lift steel plates off a laser table, load new sheets, bend steel parts, etc.. So if I, and others, have long hour days of similar stress at work then we are not holding 120% of FTP no matter how mentally strong we are or want to be. For me a rest day, or 2, gives me a lot more strength to hit a 4.2 watt FTP but through-out the work weeks I am not going to hit those intervals regardless of what Andrew or others think I should be able to hit. If I didn't work or had a desk job then yeah maybe I could hit those intervals but I don't and won't know that. That is why I do my FTP test with no days off and/or even lower it after that if I can't hit the intervals. This is a hobby for me and I want to get stronger not depressed.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Sigh...

"Alls you can do is alls you can do." - me

"The training levels are descriptive, not prescriptive." - me

"They're called levels and not zones for a reason." - me

"exercise prescriptions should be individualized, in this case taking into account the power the athlete has generated in previous similar or identical workouts . . . the primary reference, therefore, is not to the system itself, but to the athlete’s own unique (and current) ability. " - me

(BTW, note how the last quote - which stems from the original introduction of the training levels over 15 y ago - directly addresses the false claim by Sufferfest that "4DP" is a novel idea.)

I'm close in power level to you, I'll give my experiences on this.........

I tested out at 255w for 20min and 275w for 8min using the Time Crunched Cyclist plans.

Those prescribe power intervals as usually 3x3min with 3min rest between intervals and more rest between sets. The rest between sets seems to vary as the plans progress but the 3x3min seems constant. In the "hold" weeks it goes to 6x2min with less rest in intervals. I found that one the hardest.

Either way, in my first road race plan I did to be able to improve to the 255w, I tested out so that my power intervals were done between 270w and 300w. Earlier in the plan I was at 270w (lower % over ftp) and later in the plan was able to be at 300w. That 270w and 300w were based on a 225w 20min or 250w 8min for the TCC plan. So 270 was 20% over 20min ftp and 300 was 30% over.

Not going to lie, something in the 3min range at 1.25 to 1.30x your ftp is gonna suck. Much more so since the TCC plans are based on an 8min test and percentages/ranges.

I had to be well rested and prepared for those workouts. I always feel I can crank out an SS or over under workout if I have to. But the power intervals I have to be ready.

Ranges may vary by person. The book said 101% minimum. I know the rest between intervals and power level is targeting very specific adaptations, so I can't comment on what you should do if you're in the low end of the range for a power interval.

All I know is that now that I tested up to 255w from 225w, those power intervals next time around are gonna suck something bad. They always do.

Also, careful of power measurements outdoors vs indoors and on different trainers and with different fans. My training on a Cycleops 400 pro is pretty much 1-1 with my Stages and Wahoo outdoors. But those both are about 15 to 20w high versus what I can do in a poorly ventilated room at home on a Fluid 2 trainer with the same Stages and Wahoo.

I found myself wondering why power intervals on that Fluid 2 were so horrible that I bonked the last half of the last set multiple times till I bothered to pay attention to my environment.

Those intervals are probably often more rare for Tri folks versus road racers. If I want to race Cat 5 next year, I have to be able to attack or respond to attacks outside my comfort zone........repeatedly.

If you're not used to that kind of thing, it's hard.