Relatively new to the sport and biking is by far my biggest disadvantage. I was a high school swimmer and runner, but never did any biking at all until I picked up some old school spin classes post college. Now that I am getting serious about Tri I have really tried to increase my bike work. I purchased a cheap road bike to start this season, and have been able to put in a lot more mileage outside than ever before( try to get in bt 40-60 miles every Saturday) as well as cycling focused spin classes twice a week. Unfortunately I spent most of what my wife allotted me to spend on tri gear this season and a power meter is out of the question until I get a new bike. I've done a few sprint races and can't seem to get myself over the 19mph hump. I've taken the FTP test twice this year once getting 292 and once getting 299. I feel like with those numbers even on my entry bike I should be averaging 20mph for at least Sprints and Oly's, but without power feedback like I have in spin I feel like I just am not able to get the results in the race I want. Any feedback or advice from those who are effectively using HRM or some other method to pace their speed on the bike would be a huge help. FWIW I'm a 6'5" 209 (and losing weight) male, averaging roughly 18-19mph on my longer training rides and on a sprint tri I feel like my heart rate sits at 155 on a 12 mile sprint at 18.4 mph on my most recent ride. I know as I continue to lose weight I will need to keep up with how it affects my HR zone, but really looking to push thru this plateau. Let me know if I need to provide additional info.
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Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
How did you assess your FTP without a PM?
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [blueapplepaste]
[ In reply to ]
The spin bikes have a power meter we use the ic7 at my training facility https://www.teamicg.com/en and we do a test on them once a month...talking to similar bikers in the class they get pretty close numbers to what they find through using their PM
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
You're racing slower than your training rides?
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
So this is on a road bike and you're 6'5"? Either way do you have a picture of you from the side riding your bike?
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
Really, you can get pretty close with RPE. HR only works for longer steady state efforts, in mild to moderate temperatures.
Here's all you need
Easy = conversation pace 40-65%
Endurance (Zone 2, IM pace) - conversation OK, but breathing a little bit more 65-80%
Tempo = Steady Breathing, not hard, not easy - 80-95%
Threshold = Breathing starts to pick up. Can only hold this effort for 10-20 minutes normally unless it's a race. 95-105%
VO2 = Breathing very hard, lets get fatigued after 1-3 minutes. 105-130%
Sprint (anaerobic) can only hold this for 10-60 seconds. 130%+
There you go. No FTP tests needed. Just ride. Ride a lot more, about 1/2 of it harder intervals, the other recovery, tempo or endurance.
Just like swimming and running, to get better you need ot train 5-7 days a week even if its' a shorter interval session.
TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Here's all you need
Easy = conversation pace 40-65%
Endurance (Zone 2, IM pace) - conversation OK, but breathing a little bit more 65-80%
Tempo = Steady Breathing, not hard, not easy - 80-95%
Threshold = Breathing starts to pick up. Can only hold this effort for 10-20 minutes normally unless it's a race. 95-105%
VO2 = Breathing very hard, lets get fatigued after 1-3 minutes. 105-130%
Sprint (anaerobic) can only hold this for 10-60 seconds. 130%+
There you go. No FTP tests needed. Just ride. Ride a lot more, about 1/2 of it harder intervals, the other recovery, tempo or endurance.
Just like swimming and running, to get better you need ot train 5-7 days a week even if its' a shorter interval session.
TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
If your FTP is ~300W, then you should be able to average well north of 20 MPH on a sprint race, even on a road bike. In my experience shifting from a full upright road position to a triathlon bike, I instantly sped up by almost 2 MPH. So, that is one thing working against you. But, 18 MPH on a road bike is easy with FTP far below 300, especially for just a dozen miles.
So, a couple possibilities... 1) Your power is not as high as the spin class machines are showing; 2) You have something radically wrong with your position or bike that is slowing you down more than for most people. Out of curiosity, what is the spin bike showing you as your average power after your regular workouts?
You do not necessarily need power on your bike to ride a triathlon effectively. Though, it helps tremendously. I think that training with a power meter is where you gain most of the advantages-- you gain consistency in the workout and train to a known level of effort. Then, you can translate this to triathlon performance simply by riding to a perceived level of effort in the race derived from perceived level of effort on the trainer. I trained for my first HIM this year with power on my trainer but not on my bike. I was pretty well tuned into the relationship between my HR, how I felt, and my power output. Leading up to the tri, I rode some brick workouts to a target HR and then tested how I felt on the run. Then in the tri, I simply rode to my target HR.
So, a couple possibilities... 1) Your power is not as high as the spin class machines are showing; 2) You have something radically wrong with your position or bike that is slowing you down more than for most people. Out of curiosity, what is the spin bike showing you as your average power after your regular workouts?
You do not necessarily need power on your bike to ride a triathlon effectively. Though, it helps tremendously. I think that training with a power meter is where you gain most of the advantages-- you gain consistency in the workout and train to a known level of effort. Then, you can translate this to triathlon performance simply by riding to a perceived level of effort in the race derived from perceived level of effort on the trainer. I trained for my first HIM this year with power on my trainer but not on my bike. I was pretty well tuned into the relationship between my HR, how I felt, and my power output. Leading up to the tri, I rode some brick workouts to a target HR and then tested how I felt on the run. Then in the tri, I simply rode to my target HR.
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [exxxviii]
[ In reply to ]
exxxviii wrote:
If your FTP is ~300W, then you should be able to average well north of 20 MPH on a sprint race, even on a road bike. In my experience shifting from a full upright road position to a triathlon bike, I instantly sped up by almost 2 MPH. So, that is one thing working against you. But, 18 MPH on a road bike is easy with FTP far below 300, especially for just a dozen miles. .
At 6'5" 205lbs? you sure about that? At 5'11" 165, 20mph solo probably takes me I estimate 250watts on my road bike. If his FTP is 300, then 275 is about as hard as he should ride for a 2:15 Olympic. He's not far off. We have no idea how hilly or windy it was. Bike fit, at that height will be HUGE. We also have no idea what tires, wheels, helmet, bottle set-up etc.
With the best aero fit on a superbike, 300W will only get him around 24mph. He's tall. No way around that. At 5'11", its 28-29mph.
TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [STP]
[ In reply to ]
STP wrote:
Do some interval work on the bike. Whether it is a power meter, heart rate or just looking at your speed, you need to overload yourself to get over this speed hump.^^^^^THIS^^^^^
You don't need any special equipment to effectively train on the bike. Short, hard intervals will do wonders.
Go 3-8 minutes as hard as you can. Rest for 2-3. Repeat.
Don't do too much of these intense efforts -- maybe 20% of your time on the bike max -- and spend the rest of your riding at an easy pace. You'll get fast quick.
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
Will try to get a picture up tonight...I haven't been able a great fit yet, mostly using my wife's knowledge on setting up a bike fit for a spin class to ensure no Knee pain etc. Also yes based on the two sprints I have done this summer I ride 18-19 MPH in my two sprint races, and then in my longer training rides where typically I am pushed by a better biker, or have stops(gas stations for bottle changes, or aid stations in organized rides) where I stop my garmin for brief intervals I also have been able to hold roughly 18-19 mph.
FWIW:
Kenda 700x25CC Tires
Weinmann DP18 Alloy Wheels
Came on the bike and haven't upgraded them
FWIW:
Kenda 700x25CC Tires
Weinmann DP18 Alloy Wheels
Came on the bike and haven't upgraded them
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
Gotcha. My first thought was maybe you used virtual power through Trainer Road or similar. Which I wouldn't use for anything other than using the trainer.
As some one else said just start doing intervals and RPE. PM was one of the best investments ivemade, but I improved without one for years. Not a cost of entry to improving at all.
As some one else said just start doing intervals and RPE. PM was one of the best investments ivemade, but I improved without one for years. Not a cost of entry to improving at all.
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [exxxviii]
[ In reply to ]
exxxviii wrote:
So, a couple possibilities... 1) Your power is not as high as the spin class machines are showing; 2) You have something radically wrong with your position or bike that is slowing you down more than for most people. Out of curiosity, what is the spin bike showing you as your average power after your regular workouts? This morning we did a harder set 3min 120FTP% 2min 76-90FTP% repeat
3 min 120FTP% 2 min 50-75%FTP% repeat
With a warmup and cool down and I entered my starting FTP at 270 so my average was between 240 and 250 I would say typically its somewhere in the ballpark of 220-240 which is why I'm so curious about my race pace, perhaps even though it doesnt feel like it now I am just leaving too much out there on the bike.
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
Also here is my longest ride to date on a long flat course with a 292 FTP I'd imagine most of you are saying I need to be pushing my watts much higher than this during a race.
*Added 12mi sprint race bike info
*Added 12mi sprint race bike info
Last edited by:
tristartriguy: Jun 28, 16 12:17
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Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
already lots of good advice here. If it's in your budget, you can get an indoor trainer and a subscription to trainerroad and take advantage of their virtual power feature (you'll need a speed and cadence sensor as well). trainnerroad workouts are awesome. with that being said, as others have pointed out you don't need any special equipment to do interval workouts.
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [motoguy128]
[ In reply to ]
motoguy128 wrote:
At 6'5" 205lbs? you sure about that?
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
tristartriguy wrote:
Also here is my longest ride to date on a long flat course with a 292 FTP I'd imagine most of you are saying I need to be pushing my watts much higher than this during a race.
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
I think you are getting ahead of yourself. You need to get out and ride more. You have a road bike. Can you find a fast group to ride with? You just don't have enough mileage in you legs. Ditch the spin classes, get outside and just ride hard a lot more.
(
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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law
(
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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [Sweeney]
[ In reply to ]
Definitely a lot of good advice here and I agree interval work outside of just longer rides for mileage I definitely need to be incorporating, but I'm not sure ditching the spin classes are my best bet either, I'm able to really focus on interval work and high RPMs there that I think do translate pretty well to my road bike. This aren't soul cycle classes with lots of "jumping" and arm workouts, they are 16-20 mile interval hours taught by fellow triathletes. I agree I can spend some more time on the real bike, but easier said than done living in a metropolitan area during the week.
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [Sweeney]
[ In reply to ]
Sweeney wrote:
Ditch the spin classes, get outside and just ride hard a lot more.When I got back into triathlons this year, I did almost all of my bike training on the indoor trainer. I was nervous that the fitness would translate to real life ability, because I had never trained like that before. And I was training for an HIM. But, I found that I progressed much faster than I expected because of the focus. I got more benefit per minute of trainer time than I could get on the road. Sure, a rider can make a road ride highly effective, but it is easier for many people to get more focused effort on a trainer (assuming you have power and a good training plan and program that you execute against).
My other data point is a friend of mine who started riding on a Peloton trainer this year because of an injury that prevented him from running. He had no prior bicycle experience and no intention of riding outside. I talked him into getting a road bike, and after three months, he went from 0 to an 18 MPH rider on the road bike-- probably an FTP in the mid 200 range, but he does not have power and never did an FTP test on the Peloton.
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
The biggest improvement I made in cycling came when I started doing a group ride once a week. There was this "Oh, so that is what hard is" moment and they kept coming. Good group rides are basically a giant interval session, only you can't ease up or you are off the back. Its like the difference between only working out all alone by yourself in the pool versus getting to experience having a pool full of teammates trying to kick each others asses in practice. You'll also learn a lot of basic riding skills which, depending on your current skill level, might make you faster without any fitness gains needed.
Part of your problem may be you have just not been forced to see what is possible on a bike yet ;-)
Part of your problem may be you have just not been forced to see what is possible on a bike yet ;-)
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [exxxviii]
[ In reply to ]
I have been using Trainer Road for the last two winters and I get great workouts from it. Even though I have a bike mounted full time on the Computrainer, I just can't get myself downstairs to use it when I can get in a great outdoor ride. Outside, I get in great hill workouts and like it that way. I know that TR helps build strength. I can see that when I use it.
But (there's always a but), last year I asked in the TR thread ''can anyone post their improvement in race results, were you mid-pack and now on the podium, were you a slug and now setting the top bike split, 1st in age group, etc?'' The answer I got was ''well, it doesn't work that way.
I'm 66 years old. I started doing this sport before there were power meters and before most people used heart monitors. Yes there is a place for all that but the guaranteed way to get fast on the bike is to find a fast group and go out and get your butt kicked night after night, week after week
It worked for me. It works every time.
---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law
But (there's always a but), last year I asked in the TR thread ''can anyone post their improvement in race results, were you mid-pack and now on the podium, were you a slug and now setting the top bike split, 1st in age group, etc?'' The answer I got was ''well, it doesn't work that way.
I'm 66 years old. I started doing this sport before there were power meters and before most people used heart monitors. Yes there is a place for all that but the guaranteed way to get fast on the bike is to find a fast group and go out and get your butt kicked night after night, week after week
It worked for me. It works every time.
---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
tristartriguy wrote:
Relatively new to the sport and biking is by far my biggest disadvantage. I was a high school swimmer and runner, but never did any biking at all until I picked up some old school spin classes post college. Now that I am getting serious about Tri I have really tried to increase my bike work. I purchased a cheap road bike to start this season, and have been able to put in a lot more mileage outside than ever before( try to get in bt 40-60 miles every Saturday) as well as cycling focused spin classes twice a week. Unfortunately I spent most of what my wife allotted me to spend on tri gear this season and a power meter is out of the question until I get a new bike. I've done a few sprint races and can't seem to get myself over the 19mph hump. I've taken the FTP test twice this year once getting 292 and once getting 299. I feel like with those numbers even on my entry bike I should be averaging 20mph for at least Sprints and Oly's, but without power feedback like I have in spin I feel like I just am not able to get the results in the race I want. Any feedback or advice from those who are effectively using HRM or some other method to pace their speed on the bike would be a huge help. FWIW I'm a 6'5" 209 (and losing weight) male, averaging roughly 18-19mph on my longer training rides and on a sprint tri I feel like my heart rate sits at 155 on a 12 mile sprint at 18.4 mph on my most recent ride. I know as I continue to lose weight I will need to keep up with how it affects my HR zone, but really looking to push thru this plateau. Let me know if I need to provide additional info.In the meantime of your quest for power, you can always use VirtualPower on an indoor trainer as a tool for precise, comparable data. All you'll need is a speed sensor in order to get this done, and in combination with a structured training plan you'll surely dial in a better bike split than what you're used to. :) While the VP readings may not be 100% road representative of your power outdoors, you'll still be able to benefit from training with power. Doing so means that your results are comparable, and you'll be able to track your progress.
Feel free to take a look at what it's all about from the links below:
VirtualPower — How it works
VirtualPower vs. Power Meters
Happy Training — Ride Hard!
Get Faster with TrainerRoad
Re: Biking w/out a Power Meter [tristartriguy]
[ In reply to ]
300 watt FTP is pretty high up there if you consider yourself lacking on the bike. Not that it isn't useful to have that number, but it may just be your gauge for workouts on that particular spin bike and may not translate to the road.
I currently only use virtual power on Trainer Road. Fully aware that number is also only useful for training metrics. I tested at a 205 before my last race. Did about 4 weeks of training at that 205 FTP using their plans. On a flat low wind course, I averaged 22 mph on a 12 mile ride. I'm 5'11" 165. Not the most aggressive fit in the world. If I was on my road bike, I'd say I still would have broken 20.
Just a data point to show that you may be doing decently well for your height like, weight, and fitness level (assuming FTP just isn't calibrated well). Especially if there is wind or hills. Easily can throw speed numbers off. That's why a power meter is useful. Speed is highly variable.
I currently only use virtual power on Trainer Road. Fully aware that number is also only useful for training metrics. I tested at a 205 before my last race. Did about 4 weeks of training at that 205 FTP using their plans. On a flat low wind course, I averaged 22 mph on a 12 mile ride. I'm 5'11" 165. Not the most aggressive fit in the world. If I was on my road bike, I'd say I still would have broken 20.
Just a data point to show that you may be doing decently well for your height like, weight, and fitness level (assuming FTP just isn't calibrated well). Especially if there is wind or hills. Easily can throw speed numbers off. That's why a power meter is useful. Speed is highly variable.
Trainer Road has worked wonders for me.
Used it almost exclusively for the past few years from January until race day. June this year and July last year.
Using the virtual power meter as I don't own one myself and the numbers are off (I hope) but consistent so you can still keep improving with that number. I say off as it has me at a 156 FTP. Might be true (don't have a PM to prove wrong) but seems low.
In 2 years have gone from barley being able to hold 30km pace for an Olympic distance. then a 6:38 bike time (27km avg) in Whistler last year. Should have been a bit faster but the weather was nasty and I was being extremely cautious on the downhills. To this year in Victoria getting a 2:44 bike split (32.8 km avg) and still felt good for the run.
Just my thoughts on Trainer Road. It works. Maybe try it. At the price you can't really go wrong.
Used it almost exclusively for the past few years from January until race day. June this year and July last year.
Using the virtual power meter as I don't own one myself and the numbers are off (I hope) but consistent so you can still keep improving with that number. I say off as it has me at a 156 FTP. Might be true (don't have a PM to prove wrong) but seems low.
In 2 years have gone from barley being able to hold 30km pace for an Olympic distance. then a 6:38 bike time (27km avg) in Whistler last year. Should have been a bit faster but the weather was nasty and I was being extremely cautious on the downhills. To this year in Victoria getting a 2:44 bike split (32.8 km avg) and still felt good for the run.
Just my thoughts on Trainer Road. It works. Maybe try it. At the price you can't really go wrong.