Thanks Andrew, yes that has explained your stance, although I did have to read that last sentence through a few times.

If fatigue does alter lactate threshold wouldn't there be valuable information to be gained by being able to measure the changes?

For example, if you start a session but see that lactate is higher than it should be even though you feel 'normal' would that be actionable intelligence? Would it be better to ignore the lactate level and rely on power / pace and feel, or be guided by the lactate level?

Should one be primarily governed by how intense an effort feels or by the lactate number?

Personally I would always opt to be guided by feel, but I have read that people often go too hard, as threshold is often a far easier effort than people assume.

This looks awesome.
And it only looks as dorky as compression socks, except with a needle sticking in your calf at all times!

Another question, would it be better to be guided by threshold in terms of the power or pace one can maintain or threshold in terms of the blood lactate number?

If I understand Andrew Coggan correctly, the blood lactate number is just a measurement of one thing that is going on in the body, like heart rate, so the lactate number should not be adhered to, but the pace or power output should be adhered to?

And if I understand Olbrecht, you should be adhering to the blood lactate number because it is the blood lactate level which really matters?

Yes. It is affected by VO2 max and VO2 max changes almost daily. See our short page on this.

http://www.lactate.com/vo2max.html

It is also affected by other things such as glycogen depletion or economy issues. If one is tired their mechanics may not be the best. One should do such a test only when rested and the body has regenerated. See our page on super compensation which illustrates the timing of the regeneration from different types of training.

http://www.lactate.com/...pensation/index.html

There is a list of different types of workouts and the timing for the restoration of normal adaptation,

The threshold test or what is called SLTP (Standard Lactate Test Protocol) is affected by many things We have two pages on our triathlon site that lists some of the things that have to be controlled to have consistent testing. Here are links to the two pages:

http://www.lactate.com/..._consistency_01.html

http://www.lactate.com/..._consistency_02.html

Is this just for lactate testing? No, these issues will affect any type of measurement one takes. It is best to compare like physiological states to each other so rested is most like race day so one should test when rested. This does not mean no training before testing but it should be only low level and definitely no anaerobic sets or weights.

This information comes from Olbrecht. He wrote a long article on the triathlon for us. We were going to publish it in a book but that never came about. We published his article as our triathlon site. But we added some content from other sources to this but the site is essentially from this article that never got published.

Like anything you see, consider it and take it for what it is worth. Olbrecht is incredibly bright and extremely logical about what he recommends. He tries to provide the best practices to the coaches and athletes he helps. When we started selling lactate analyzers we literally searched the world for people to explain it to us and after we met him, it all became clear.


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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

There's no needle. Its an optical sensor.

Olbrecht uses lactate measurements to estimate the aerobic and anaerobic capacities. It is these two measures along with economy that really matter. It is these that will drive performance and will be the basis for training intensity and duration. The anaerobic capacity is much harder to get a handle on but the aerobic capacity is easier to get at by lactate testing. He is mainly interested in these two capacities because they determine how fast one can compete at during a race.

He is not looking for any specific lactate level for training but will estimate training paces off of VO2 max (estimated from the testing) and the anaerobic capacity (also estimated from the testing).

He will occasionally look at lactate levels using a spot test to make sure the athlete is not training too hard or too slow or to validate the more extensive lactate testing protocol.

He says coaches should think in terms of these two capacities. Is this the only thing training and a performance is about. No, he works/has worked with several world champions and realizes that nutrition, mechanics, personal situation, attitude and many other things affect performance but this thread is just about training and testing.


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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

Sigh...so much misinformation, so little time.

(If you think VO2max changes almost daily, I suggest that you reread Loring Rowell's chapter in the Handbook of Physiology.)

What new data are you expecting? It's already been demonstrated that NIRS can be used to estimate lactate threshold; "all" that BSXInsight has done is leverage and refine this (and other) knowledge to create an affordable, portable sensor for consumers.

(Quotes around "all" because I don't mean to denigrate their efforts, just pointing out the underlying principle itself is not new. It's also worth noting that there are other portable, consumer-oriented NIRS units out there, e.g., the Moxy Monitor.)

Somehow I doubt that.


Pithy power proverb: "If it feels hard, it *is* hard."

IOW, if percevied exertion is markedly higher than normal at a particular absolute exercise intensity (e.g., power or pace), then that represents "actionable intelligence", regardless of whether lactate levels are low (due, e.g, acute overreaching leading to glycogen depletion) or high (due, e.g., to being too rested/"fresh").

Argument by exasperation. Do you think a VO2 max test will show the same thing before and after someone runs a hard marathon? Are you saying there is no breaking down of capacity during a training season and no regeneration? No building of capacity? Why all that training?

How does VO2 max change during a training season if it does not change over shorter periods of time. Is it in only one direction? Why do a VO2 max test?

Here is a comment about Olbrecht's book from a swimming coach.


The coach was Bob Bowman, the coach of Michael Phelps. So he understood eventually the concept of building aerobic capacity or changing VO2 max.


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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

If it makes you feel any better, I (and many others) gave up on Frank Day as well.


If not, then the proper interpretation isn't that VO2max has changed, but that the conditions under which the VO2max test was performed were sub-optimal, thus preventing the individual from expressing their true VO2max.

(The alternative position you've taken is analogous to claiming that a night of carousing significantly diminishes your actual intelligence because the hangover causes you to score poorly on an IQ test.)


Now you're splitting hairs: obviously VO2max goes up with training and down with detraining, but that's different from saying that someone's true cardiovascular fitness varies significantly from day-to-day.


Argument by attempting to appeal to authority.

Can somebody explain to me how anaerobic training can interfere with or degrade the development of aerobic capacity.

Cuberti...that is where you are wrong, the BSXinsight is completely non-invasive and there are no needles or pricks. Hence our interbike marketing slogan "Stop the Pricks"

Bryan

In Olbrecht's book he talks about using a 30 min test as an alternative to lactate testing. He says this test accurately predicts threshold. But he also says that sometimes this can be misleading as someone with a very low or very high anaerobic capacity may slew the result and end up training at too high or too low an intensity. He argues the lactate test is more precise.

Why not do a longer test which would eliminate much more of the anaerobic contribution?

Or do a very hard all out effort before the test to eliminate most of the anaerobic contribution from the 30 min test?

Olbrecht also says that diet affects the lactate level, there seems to be room for errors and confusion.

I'm leaning to agree with Coggan.

I think the issue here, assuming it works is the business model.

IE limitations on single user, single sport, possibly only one type of test (ramp), which is then interpreted in "the cloud" etc.

Maurice

What has this got to do with anything? This sounds like an attempt at a personal put down as if you are not really trying to make someone actually feel better.

I am a messenger here, expressing a message that has developed several world champions and has very good success with age group programs as well.

You can disagree but it is not me you are trying to put down but an idea or a concept. I would deal with the concepts presented. They are published in very good journals. They have been applied with numerous successful athletes. It is a point of view that should be considered.


Are you saying that aerobic capacity is not affected by workouts and regeneration is not the result of breaking down and the building back to a higher level. If you believe that fine, but for those who think this is not true, consult the training literature and the process of super-compensation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercompensation


So there is are several periods during a normal training cycle where fitness has deteriorated from previous levels and then increase over previous levels. Are you saying that the VO2 max if it was measured at all these times would not be different. Some of these changes are changes to the density of the mitochondria.

No one will actually measure VO2 max all these times. Are you aware of anyone who has

From Olbrecht's book:


We will let the readers decide. Remember it is not me you are refuting but one of the most successful training advisers in the world.

Again here is our site on super compensation for those interested in what happens during training.

http://www.lactate.com/...pensation/index.html



This is one of the silliest responses I have seen. Bowman is the coach of the most successful swimmer in history. So I plead guilty by referencing his thoughts/reactions on these concepts. He is not the most articulate speaker around but he does have a track record.

Here is a link to the actual talk he gave to the swim coaches for those who are interested, Scroll down a little till you see "Training for Capacity vs Utilization"

http://swimmingcoach.org/category/training/

By the way I am reading your chapter in Tipton's book. I will use some of your references for our cd. We have more than 6000 references on it for exercise physiology, training, testing and various other related issues. I will also read to see if George Brooks has anything interesting to say. We are working on a website about the history of lactate testing and the various thresholds. We have a couple of world experts on lactate metabolism that have offered to kibitz on it.

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Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

What is the difference between the 3 different versions (cycling, running, multisport)? All of them use the same method of determining blood lactate, and all of them fit around your calf, correct? Are there different data collection options or something?

Not sure I have understood correctly...
Does BSX provide a full profile of lactate or just the threshold?
In the first case it can be useful, otherwise data from field can be enough (that is at least my opinion)

Why wouldn't it provide a full lactate profile? You would have to do some form of ramp test using a treadmill for running and a Computrainer or equivalent for cycling to set training zones based upon run pace and cycling power. A HR monitor can also be used if you train by HR.

The difference between the models is what data the device will pull down and analyze during testing. Running will only pair with running related gadgets and use heart rate and pace and only calculate LT for running. Cycling will only pull in heart rate and power from devices and only do a cycling LT. Multisport will pair with both running and cycling devices and do LT analysis for both running and cycling.

I assume they will not be using different hardware BOMs for the three devices but instead are doing feature limiting in software. I can't imagine the multisport version requires a different ANT+ chip to handle the marginally wider data sets or device compatibility. Software feature limiting for marketing purposes is always disappointing.

Because it is not measuring lactate but NIRS measurements of oxygen saturation...and I guess their algorithm provides a post-analysis data with only the LT threshold.

But I would be very interested to know more from BSX

I understand that the NIRS measurements track lactate very well. Can't the BSX provide real-time estimates of lactate? Maybe it was wishful thinking, but I was envisioning being able to use a BSX during training sessions to ensure that I am in the appropriate zone.

It is indeed possible to identify a "breakpoint" in NIRS data during exercise of increasing intensity that correlates with lactate threshold. Other than that, though, it can't really be said that NIRS measurements track all that closely w/ lactate levels (in either blood or muscle).

Bummer. Would it be useful to ensure that easy sessions are well below lactate threshold, and that really hard session are above lactate threshold? At that point, might as well just do field testing to determine running and cycling threshold paces/power and work with those.

The whole notion that training within tightly-specified "zones" yields better results has no basis in reality.