Vo2 max is 3-5 min efforts. 300-400 y/m repeats for most people. 500 race is around v02 max

30 min TT = threshold

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Okay. Let's say I can hold 1:18/100y for 30 minutes. That's 78 seconds. Divide by 1.05 gives about 1:14/100. That doesn't seem like much of a difference when doing much shorter repeats. Maybe more like 110%+? How much recovery between those 500s?

I would have thought that something like 500 repeats would be "threshold" workouts, while 100s and 200s would be vo2max workouts. But I've been told I'm a "sprinter."

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Longer Vo2Max efforts should have nearly full recovery.

You could also consider doing shorter Vo2max paced efforts - i.e. 100s and only give yourself 15 to 20 seconds rest - ala the 30/30; 1/1 Vo2max intervals used by some.

A threshold set would be 20-30 x 100 holding 1:18s on a 1:23-1:28 rest interval

If 1:18/100 truly is your all out 30 min TT pace, the above set should put you at threshold and feel somewhat difficult.

100s all out are anaerobic and 200s all out are on the bridge of aerobic an anaerobic (a 2 min duration is the upper limit of anaerobic capacity)

With sets: intensity + rest time dictate the training stimulus.
4 x 500 with :30-:40 rest, threshold
4 x 500 all out with say 2-4 min rest between each one, vo2 max.

Did that clear it up?

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Ken,

These questions are actually answered very well in the book "Championship Swim Training" is details these very types of things.

For threshold work we use critical pace, which is close to 30 minute pace but found a bit differently.

Threshold workouts,
As was said the 30 x 100 at threshold pace with 5 to 15 seconds rest. These are en2 sets specifically and you can find more about them in a few different spots.

The way we work this is to start with 18 x 100 15 seconds rest at critical pace. Then we add in repeats until it is at 30 or so. Then we start to put in longer repeats. Maybe 4 x 100 (:15) and then a 400 at critical pace (:40). Until hopefully you are holding critical pace for 1,000 or so. Then it is probably time to retest.

For some people in my class they stagnated after 8 weeks of this tytpe of workout and stopped improving, others went an entire 12 weeks with no sign of slowing down. It is up to you to determine which is best.

For VO2 max work you are looking at the en3 type of set described in other places.

We do three different types of these.
1. 6 - 12 x 50 with 5 seconds rest as fast as you can manage. This basically takes the place of the 300 to 500 yard swims tigerchik mentioned. The idea is that it is easier to muster the strength mentally and physcially to put in 500 quality yards if you get the 5 second breaks.

2. After doing that for a while we go to straight 300s to 500s. In each case, the rest is at least 1:1. Usually using active recovery in there.

3. 30 / 30s. 8 to 16 rounds. Very similar to the Billat intervals we do on the bike or run. For you you can probably get close to that with 8 rounds of 50 sprint / 25 easy with very little rest. The 25 easy plus the rest with it should take about 30 seconds total.

The physiological cost for going faster is exponential.

Kevin in MD had a great post as well. The book he recommended is going to be over most non swimmers heads, but you will understand it. it's worth the read imo.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I kind of see what you are getting at, but I think the flaw is that comparing swimming and cycling has a few bugs in it. First of all, you have metered breathing in swimming, that is a big difference in the two sports, in fact it sets swimming apart from every sport not done in the water. Secondly, the distance raced in swimming is a lot shorter in time and distance, as compared to cycling. That is going to require a different type of training. Now of course there are 10k, 25k events now in swimming, but those might be compared to a 500 mile cycling race.

And DD was right in that it is exponential when you start shaving off seconds off threshold pace(not really sure where that is, but I know it is hard). Go back to your example of 1;18's for 30 minutes. I think you thought 1;14s would not be too much of a stretch because you were looking at it through your eyes and ability. But take what you could really do for 30 minutes, probably 1;13 to 1;14 pace, and now lop off 5 seconds and hold for 30x100 with short rest. Seem a little harder now??

You bumping up against some walls now that you are a swimming fiend? I know the feeling, but I'm just going to fall back on what I learned all those years ago in high school and college, and mix it in with all the new stroke developements that have happened since, and hope for a breakthrough once I do a little taper..

Marky V gave me this set 50x50 odds fast 5"/evens easy 10". I think you could swim these on 35/45.

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Bruce
ALBOPADS XTERRAWETSUITS NEWTON OAKLEY FIZIK GARMIN ROTOR COMPUTRAINER QUARQ HONEYSTINGER

I've done the reverse with good success. Take what i know from swimming workouts and apply it in the same manner to bike and run.

Funny how triathletes think of z4 as HARD. Z4 is a boring walk in the park compared to z6-30 sec action.....of which swimmers do a lot of.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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bad math there... the same physics dont apply.

see doc phil for that.

water is thicker than air, you need to calculate your power for that 30minute swim then do your calcs on that number, then reverse calc it back out to get the faster time you are seeking.

I have athletes give me their 100, 200, 500 and 1000 all out times. From there that's all i need to know for training them.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

A threshold set would be 20-30 x 100 holding 1:18s on a 1:23-1:28 rest interval
If 1:18/100 truly is your all out 30 min TT pace, the above set should put you at threshold and feel somewhat difficult.
That's about right. if one can hold 1.18 for 30min then with 7-10 secs of rest on 100s is gonna be hard but nowhere near killer

100s all out are anaerobic and 200s all out are on the bridge of aerobic an anaerobic (a 2 min duration is the upper limit of anaerobic capacity)
Kinda sorta. 200s (or 800s on the track) are, IMO, the most perfect event. You have to train your neuro, your anaerobic and your aerobic capacities to their utmost best to have the best race. I see it as this and correct me if i'm off.....
25s = neuro
50s = anaerobic
100s (for triathletes) = blended anaerobic and aerobic (for dudes at NCAAs it's very likely mostly anaerobic)
200s = a perfect blend of all of the above.
500s = mostly aerobic
IM swim = mostly boring
<hint to IM athletes....focus on improving your 2min of pain....it'd do you a LOT of good>

With sets: intensity + rest time dictate the training stimulus.
4 x 500 with :30-:40 rest, threshold
Yep! My fav set.... well actually 6x400 :)

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Oh god. Next week is going to suck.

LOL!!!!!

Yep, test week. :)

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

I hate the 200 with a passion but that's probably because I don't do a good job with that "2 min of pain" .... prefer 5-6 min of pain with a 500 thank you very much

25s : agree
50s: agree
100s for triathletes: agree. 100s for college swimmers? DEFINITELY anaerobic not "most likely." Takes them what, 47 seconds?
200s: suck
500s: aerobic for the average tri swimmer and vo2 max for a good fishie (ie, I know some HSers who can go 4:30s and have a couple female friends in the 5:30 range... this is pretty much within the 3-5 min vo2 max window)
IM swim: yeah it probably is boring when you're the lead fishie ;-)

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Ken,
The ballpark paces for VO2max efforts in swimming can be estimated using the methods of Sweetenham (in the book referenced by Kevin), and also by the formulas that Urbanchek uses (caclulatable by my widget here - http://sites.google.com/...og/colorzonetraining ). For folks that are farther from Sweetenhams sample group (world class swimmers), his system might prove a little limiting since it relies on adding a fixed amount of time to your 200 pace to calculate your zone paces -- that said, you are a lot closer to his sample group than most, so it might work out OK. In the investigations that I have been doing lately with the Urbanchek formulas, I am pretty comfortable with what they suggest.

As for the use of VO2max efforts in swimming, I had a very successful colleague that uses liberal amounts of VO2 swims early in the season with great success with distance swimmers. That said, as another poster noted, even the longest event for a distance pool swimmer is probably 1/3 of the duration of your triathlons, so, YMMV.

In my experience, the types of benefits that I associate with a successful introduction and balancing of VO2max intervals (people who race like they've been "pithed" to quote another old colleague) can occur with sets as short as:

3-4 x 150 all out on 1:1 work to rest ratio

and as long as (a set rumored to come from David Salo, one of the worlds greatest middle distance coaches):

3 x 300 as fast as you can hold
3 x 100 same pace
4 x 75 same pace
6 x 50 same pace
1 x 300 all out
all of the above done on a 1:1 work to rest ratio.

The "Salo set" is total money. I can not count the number of times I have seen people post some seriously bad-ass times during the first 3x300s, dial themselves in during the broken 300s (which are a good deal easier since you are holding the same pace as you did on the straight ones), then come back at the end and lay down a total smackdown last 300 straight. I trust you would probably perform thusly.

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Bringing you Tweets @ http://twitter.com/findfreestyle and Not just a bunch of drills - A Process.

I will agree.

As I've been forcing myself to do more real work on the bike, I've noticed more and more that the most effective stuff appears to be very much the same as how I've been instinctively swimming as a Triathlete via a life long indocrination of how to swim.

Hopefully that means my bike will catch up to my swim in terms of relative ability ;)

I'm very hesitant to use the term vo2 anymore. I'm not a believer in it but rather think of the entire aerobic spectrum as one complete string rather than two separate aerobic spectrums. The higher end one just gets a little help from other areas when you go faster.

Rather I only work off of the distances (and by extension, times) that people produce. It easy to train someone with real world data from a 200 free.

Aerobic
Anaerobic
Neuro

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

that is true; it is a spectrum not discrete entities
vo2 just means volume of oxygen consumption ;-)

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD