Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria

Jun 3, 15 6:23

Post #1 of 18 (4406 views)

Hi Folks,

In four weeks I'll be competing at Ironman Austria. I've done this race a number of times but never before used power as a guide on the bike.

Details:

- I have a Stages Power meter and Garmin Edge 510. (I'm on a BMC TM01 if you like all the details.)

Background

- I'm a 56 yr old age grouper. My FTP is 232 (10 months of training with power using Erg Videos, Computrainer and real rides.)

- my PB at Austria is about a 13:20 (I had a 6 hr bike (about 30kph avg) on the last race but ended up walking about 1/2 the marathon.)

- I'm the type of guy who tends to go out too fast and burns it all out way before the end. So I'm determined to develop the discipline to keep patient and steady on the bike and save "the beans in the bank" for the run (my marathon (not Ironman) PB is about a 3:30)

Questions:

- current literature says to maintain steady state (minimize bike surges) and aim for about a 60%FTP for a guy with my bike times. I was thinking of a window display of %FTP, average FTP, 30 sec Power and cadence. Does this seem reasonable? Are there better displays to use? Eg I've seen some of you use the lap counter function.

- I have read a lot about normalized power and average power and IF. ratios of 1.05 and less. I'm not certain if this is something I can employ during the race or just to evaluate afterwards.

As I said, the Ironman is just a few weeks away so I'd appreciate any suggestions or things I may be overlooking. I always approach Ironman as a chance to be the best I can be, and I hope that using power as a metric will allow me to have a great race. Thanks in advance.

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 3, 15 8:28

Post #2 of 18 (4351 views)

I can't answer all of your questions (% FTP goal, for example), but..

-For display, I'd recommend 3 sec power; some people on here like 10 second power but I find that to be too long. I would find 30 seconds much too long. Cadence only if you have trouble staying within the 85-95 rpm range. I'll also have time & distance on display.
-I would not bother with %FTP or average FTP - you should know what your ranges are before going in. But if it helps, and you have room, feel free.
-I keep NP and Av Power for the entire race on my display to know if I am trending above or below my target. Your overall NP especially will provide you with an estimated level of fatigue going into your run. Best Bike split (as detailed below) will give you a target NP for your race.

-I would recommend creating an account at Best Bike Split, loading the course (if someone else has done it before and uploaded it) and then input your data to create a power profile for your race. You can do this for free for 1 race. This should give you an idea of how many watts you should be pushing on the flats, downhills, minor/major climbs, etc. It has helped me pace tremendously as I have had crash & burn problems at times.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 15 2:11

Post #3 of 18 (4272 views)

I like to keep it as simple as possible. I've dialed it down to 3 sec power, avg power and elapsed time. For IM you could consider displaying HR.

Whether you are using direct power or percentage of FTP is really just a personal preference. Shooting for a target with either method is identical. For courses with significant climbing you can consider using lap average power which can help keep you on track.

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 15 7:04

Post #4 of 18 (4211 views)

You can set an IF-Goal based on a target TSS (280 is quoted by some folks).
Once I know my goal total NP for a race, I like to look at

5s-power,
lap-average-power and (for pacing certain segments with a specific wattage goal)
(total) average power

My headunit doesn't display NP during the ride, but if the course isn't to extreme, you'll likely manage to keep NP and average power within 5% of each other (i.e. VI=1,05), so if anything: shoot for a AP of slightly below goal NP.

In reality, there's people around you, so sometimes you are below your goal Watts in a (hopefully legal) group, but would have to exceed them to attack the group or ride up front. This decision is often tough and emotional and it definitely is where IM marathons are made or destroyed.

if you can read this
YOU'RE DRAFTING!

Last edited by: flogazo: Jun 4, 15 7:19

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 15 7:19

Post #5 of 18 (4199 views)

RHBDave wrote:

My FTP is 232

I like to make simple rules for myself that are easy to follow and difficult to make exceptions for.

232W * 0.725 = ~170W. You aim for 170W on the flats or mild gradients, don't go any higher or lower. If you see yourself riding at 180W or whatever, back off. This will feel far, far too easy. Ignore average speed. Take in your calories.

When you are going up the 4-odd climbs, make 232W your upper limit unless you run out of gears. You will absolutely be overtaken by everyone else, but you'll either overtake them later in the bike or the run. Pointless being a hero. Use the climbs to get out of aero position.

Downhill, go as hard as you like... although some of them at Austria are actually quite long so the first restriction applies. Enjoy the race

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 15 7:29

Post #6 of 18 (4193 views)

Quote:

I would recommend creating an account at Best Bike Split

+1

Get your predicted NP from there. My go-to screen is 3s Power, Cadence, and NP. That's it.

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [wcb] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 15 12:48

Post #7 of 18 (4150 views)

Thanks everyone for your insights, I really appreciate them.

As per your suggestions, I'll try to focus on achieving steady state and resist that competitive urge on the bike. I really like that line "pointless being a hero" (unless you are 2 km from the finishing line haha)

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 15 15:32

Post #8 of 18 (4103 views)

RHBDave wrote:

I really like that line "pointless being a hero"

I think this is particularly true in Austria as there are only a few climbs so it's just so tempting to think you can smash up them and it won't matter... I just hit the bottom at speed, then went all the way through my gears and span the legs up them. Not saying I'm perfect (ended up with a VI of 1.10) but it also felt good to have a plan.

(I know you've done the race before but empty your bottles at the bottom of the climbs - the aid stations are generally at the top..)

Ahh, now I want to go back.

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [lamby] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 15 9:56

Post #9 of 18 (4043 views)

lamby wrote:

Ahh, now I want to go back.

I'll raise a beer and eat a schnitzel for you! (after the race)

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 15 10:25

Post #10 of 18 (4033 views)

Sounds like you use a computrainer. Please do a test to see if Stages will give you numbers that match whatever the computrainer says. You might be surprised to see that Stages will be lower or higher. Adjust your FTP accordingly.... or better yet, take a rest day or two and retest your FTP using the Stages PM.

As you know Stages measures left power only and doubles that number. In my case I know that my power balance is 53/47 most of the time. This means Stages will read as much as 6% higher for me than any other power meter. Check it out...

As for pacing, most people aim at between 65%-75% FTP. For me, the sweetspot is at 70-71.
I set up my garmin to show: Cadence, Lap Power, 3s Power, Heart Rate and Time. I don't care about speed, distance or any of that.

I configure the Garmin to Auto-Lap every 2.5mi so lap power gives me an average for the last 5-7 minutes. It's much much easier to pace off average lap power than it is by total average power. This way you can concentrate on 5 minute segments - one at a time and the number doesn't jump up or down like instant / 3s power but it's easy to see when they're trending down/up and can easily adjust your effort. Another reason why I like lap power is that you can reset for hills, coasting, stops etc... by pressing the lap button and you get to start fresh and work on executing the next segment and so on...

RHBDave wrote:

Hi Folks,

In four weeks I'll be competing at Ironman Austria. I've done this race a number of times but never before used power as a guide on the bike.

Details:

- I have a Stages Power meter and Garmin Edge 510. (I'm on a BMC TM01 if you like all the details.)

Background

- I'm a 56 yr old age grouper. My FTP is 232 (10 months of training with power using Erg Videos, Computrainer and real rides.)

- my PB at Austria is about a 13:20 (I had a 6 hr bike (about 30kph avg) on the last race but ended up walking about 1/2 the marathon.)

- I'm the type of guy who tends to go out too fast and burns it all out way before the end. So I'm determined to develop the discipline to keep patient and steady on the bike and save "the beans in the bank" for the run (my marathon (not Ironman) PB is about a 3:30)

Questions:

- current literature says to maintain steady state (minimize bike surges) and aim for about a 60%FTP for a guy with my bike times. I was thinking of a window display of %FTP, average FTP, 30 sec Power and cadence. Does this seem reasonable? Are there better displays to use? Eg I've seen some of you use the lap counter function.

- I have read a lot about normalized power and average power and IF. ratios of 1.05 and less. I'm not certain if this is something I can employ during the race or just to evaluate afterwards.

As I said, the Ironman is just a few weeks away so I'd appreciate any suggestions or things I may be overlooking. I always approach Ironman as a chance to be the best I can be, and I hope that using power as a metric will allow me to have a great race. Thanks in advance.

Last edited by: sp1ke: Jun 5, 15 10:25

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 15 10:44

Post #11 of 18 (4024 views)

Thanks Spike,

Yes, I was wondering why after a 3 hour Computrainer ride, my Computrainer software showed average power about 10% higher their than what Stages was showing me. (I did my FTP using ergo video software on the Computrainer.)

Great tip re configuring lap counting on the Garmin. I'll have to read my owners manual tonight!

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 15 10:48

Post #12 of 18 (4019 views)

RHBDave wrote:

Questions:

- current literature says to maintain steady state (minimize bike surges) and aim for about a 60%FTP for a guy with my bike times. I was thinking of a window display of %FTP, average FTP, 30 sec Power and cadence. Does this seem reasonable? Are there better displays to use? Eg I've seen some of you use the lap counter function.

- I have read a lot about normalized power and average power and IF. ratios of 1.05 and less. I'm not certain if this is something I can employ during the race or just to evaluate afterwards.

As I said, the Ironman is just a few weeks away so I'd appreciate any suggestions or things I may be overlooking. I always approach Ironman as a chance to be the best I can be, and I hope that using power as a metric will allow me to have a great race. Thanks in advance.

Dave,

With your history I hate to suggest a more aggressive power than you're planning but and IF of .60 seems more conservative than any I've ever seen. That's only a TSS of 36 per hour. Even a 7 hour bike would only be 252TSS. Smarter power pacing especially at the beginning of the bike will pay huge dividends by the end of the ride. Make that plan with Best Bike split and don't fall for the "this feels too easy" syndrome that hits 95% of age groupers early in the IM bike.

Good luck,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Last edited by: sciguy: Jun 5, 15 13:18

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 15 11:12

Post #13 of 18 (4005 views)

Thanks Sciguy - I used 0.60 as that was recommended by Joe Friel in his blog. I just ran the Best Bike Split software

Predicted: 5 hours 58 mins 43 secs Avg. Speed 30.01 kph Avg. Power 166.21 watts Normalized Power� 173.78 watts Variability Index 1.05 Intensity Factor� 0.75

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 15 13:25

Post #14 of 18 (3963 views)

RHBDave wrote:

Thanks Sciguy - I used 0.60 as that was recommended by Joe Friel in his blog. I just ran the Best Bike Split software

Predicted: 5 hours 58 mins 43 secs Avg. Speed 30.01 kph Avg. Power 166.21 watts Normalized Power� 173.78 watts Variability Index 1.05 Intensity Factor� 0.75

Now that sounds too aggressive, .75^2 X 5.98= 336TSS Can you plug in IF values to yield a TSS of ~ 280?

It would be so much fun to really run the run;)

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 15 13:22

Post #15 of 18 (3832 views)

if anyone is still reading this thread, I retested my FTP and got 241 watts.

It's now two weeks before Austria and I did the IM Austria 90K loop on my Computrainer this morning trying to use the suggestions above.

On my display, I set up cadence, 30sec power, lap power, timer and NP. I aimed for .70 x FTP = 168w average power

After the loop Garmin Connect gave me this readout:

Avg power - 155 w
NP - 171
IF = 0.855
TSS - 262.5

So NP/AP = 1.10 Many of you say I should aim for 1.05 or less. Do this mean I did too much surging and should ride more steady? Any other suggestions? I'd really like to be able to run the complete marathon this time.

Thanks again for your input.

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 15 13:52

Post #16 of 18 (3799 views)

RHBDave wrote:

if anyone is still reading this thread, I retested my FTP and got 241 watts.

It's now two weeks before Austria and I did the IM Austria 90K loop on my Computrainer this morning trying to use the suggestions above.

On my display, I set up cadence, 30sec power, lap power, timer and NP. I aimed for .70 x FTP = 168w average power

After the loop Garmin Connect gave me this readout:

Avg power - 155 w
NP - 171
IF = 0.855
TSS - 262.5

So NP/AP = 1.10 Many of you say I should aim for 1.05 or less. Do this mean I did too much surging and should ride more steady? Any other suggestions? I'd really like to be able to run the complete marathon this time.

Thanks again for your input.

Dave,

Something is off with the math here or you've made a typo . 171/241 = an IF of .71 rather than .855 Did you ride for ~ 3 hours 36 minutes? That's the only way I can see you accumulating that high a value with the incorrect .855 IF. If it was a 3:36 ride with an actual IF of .71 the TSS would be .71^2 X 3.6 X100= 181. Still way more than one would want for 1/2 of the IM where you're looking for 280ish TSS. The good news is that most folks bike way faster than their Computrainer speed for any given wattage.

In regards to the high VI, you must be doing a combo of a good deal of hammering and a good deal of soft pedaling. You should be trying to hold pretty close to 168 watts on the flat, perhaps 180 on the short steeper pitches and 1680 on the descents until you hit 30mph or so and then coast in your best aero position. It's the average watts that move you down the road and the normalized watts that tire you out. So you're only being propelled by 155 watts but being warn out as if you were outputting 171 watts.

add- If it were me, I'd only show 10 second power, time and distance. Set up power goals for the flats, climbs and descents. On race day pay the bulk of your attention to the race around you rather than spending too much time focused on the power but put that into your scan on a regular basis especially as you change terrain or wind conditions.

Hope that helps a bit.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Last edited by: sciguy: Jun 13, 15 16:24

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 13, 15 14:37

Post #17 of 18 (3778 views)

His IF is off because he left the default 200 FTP in his Garmin and Garmin connect

171/200 = 85.5

He needs to change that and IF and TSS will be correct

Re: Advice appreciated for Using Power at Ironman Austria [RHBDave] [ In reply to ]

Jul 2, 15 9:32

Post #18 of 18 (3583 views)

Dave,

How did the race go?

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

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