How could swimming with a bouy and not kicking be faster than with kicking?

Pull buoy is just a balance aid, it doesn't add propulsion....if you acquired good balance on your own, then the buoy doesn't add much. The same reason good swimmers don't go any faster with a wetsuit on whereas less gifted ones go much faster with a wetsuit on. Pull buoy doesn't add that much buoyancy to begin with, it is just very well positioned.

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I ride a Cervelo...get over it....

I don't know. It just was. And the same is/was true for a lot of people I know.

There isn't much kicking going on. Basically a beat to get the hip to open and the body to roll, 2 flutters, then a beat to open the other hip. It's not as if I'm really kicking.

[reply]I don't know. It just was. And the same is/was true for a lot of people I know.

There isn't much kicking going on. Basically a beat to get the hip to open and the body to roll, 2 flutters, then a beat to open the other hip. It's not as if I'm [i]really[/i] kicking.[/reply]

I think that was his point. You shouldn't be faster because you are taking out one compnent of propulsion.

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Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Swimming with a pull buoy and paddles makes you faster. The additional buoyancy and ability to move more water with paddles makes you faster. Well, it does for me anyways. Case in point, last night at the pool Craig Evans (stud triathlete/Xterra racer) swam 5 x 500's pull (buoy and paddles). The interval we swam these on was 6:15. We also descended each on of the 500's making sure that our last was our best. The times went something like this: 1. 5:40 2. 5:33 3. 5:27 4. 5:19 5. 5:13 I am fairly certain that I couldn't do those times just swimming. The paddles and buoys help out a lot. I love working with them as they really help with my distance per stroke (dps). I would recommend them for anyone.

Our comments are based on the fact that he only mentioned a pull bouy and not paddles. Obviously using paddles would make you faster, if used correctly, but using just a pull bouy would remove one aspect of propulsion this not making you faster without adding any additional propulsion.

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Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Even adding a pull buoy will make you faster. Think about it. More buoyancy. Using a pull buoy is like wearing a wetsuit. It makes you faster.

[reply]Even adding a pull buoy will make you faster. Think about it. More buoyancy. Using a pull buoy is like wearing a wetsuit. It makes you faster.[/reply]

I'd be interested to see some info backing that up (the pull bouy part) as I wonder if the increased bouyancy of the legs makes up for the lack of propulsion provided by kicking. You are also missing the upper body bouyancy provided by a wetsuit. I am not saying you are wrong, just that I would like to see something to back that up as it seems to my non-swimming-expert eye that a pull bouy would not make that much difference to completely out do kicking.

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Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

The amount of propulsion that one gets from a kick is negligible. While there is some, the main benefit from a good kick is to ensure good body position and roll. The amount of gain you get in body position from the buoy typically outweighs the propulsion you get from not having a kick.

I, personally, don't have any documented data that supports my claim. But, I have been swimming since I was thirteen (13) years old. My experience tells me that the pull bouy is faster. Now, mind you, we are talking about working out here. Not racing. There is no way you would be able to swim a 1:31:20 200 freestyle with a pull buoy. But, just working out, doing a set of say 10 x 100's. I would be almost positve in saying that your swim times would be faster (on average) than not using a pull buoy and just kicking. My experience has shown me that this is the case. Any other swimmers out there that can back up my claim? Train your weaknesses, race your strengths! Bruce Gennari

 "How could swimming with a bouy and not kicking be faster than with kicking? "

Simple:

When I get fatigued, my kick goes to pot. My legs, in essence, become an anchor.

They used to be an anchor before I got fatigued when I didn't kick properly, but I seem to have fized that problem. Now it's just a case of building strength / stamina.

Using a pull buoy when I'm tired keeps them from slowing me down.

kac94- You are right about that, but that doesn't help you as it teaches you to rely on the pull buoy. It also means that it doesn't help someone who can maintain a good position in the water.

BGennari- I can see your point and I did read some articles that allude to this, but I could not find anything specific or even some sort of hydrodynamic charts (they have all kinds of aerodynamic stuff out for cycling but seemingly very little on swimming, why is that?) to back this up. You, obviously, have more experience then I do in swimming so I will defer to you on this point. Though I will mention that from what I read the main benefit seems to come to people with poor positions and that when you have a good position you can maintain a pull buoy will only give you upper body strength benefits and work on stroke.

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Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

House, agreed! Body postion is everything in swimming. Well, not everything. But it certainly helps!

[reply]House, agreed! Body postion is everything in swimming. Well, not everything. But it certainly helps![/reply]

The person coaching my swimming has been having me do a lot of drills on position and with only one swim a week I am already easily 30 seconds per 100m under my goal pace that I set in January for my first race...that's still a month and a half away! I am actually at a point where I can balance with no help in a fully stretched out (arms extended and hands together, like after pushing off) position!

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Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

In addition to aiding buoyancy, the pull float isolates your legs that would otherwise be using huge amounts of O2 if kicking in turbo mode. When I use a buoy, I find my breathing rate can go down by about half or more for the same speed and allow me to breathe every 3 or 4 strokes with a pretty high arm turnover.

My legs are long and have the biggest muscles in my body in them. The use a lot of gas when moving fast.

I'm of the swim school of thought that uses the legs for balance and I go for a 2 beat in an open water Oly or longer. I only turn on the turbo kick to catch on to a draft or get away from a zigzagger.

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Mr. Uncaptured External Costs

Fossil carbon is planetary poison.

I think a lot of bad swimmers swim a lot better with the pullbouy. I don't think good swimmers swim as fast with one. The people I have known and worked with were the ones that were swimming uphill all the time. Their legs were kidking but really helping. You put these guys on a kick board and they had kicks that sometimes even made them go backward.
So you add flotation to the heavy legs and they are more streamlined in the water. A little bit like reducing the draft on a boat. So now they are flatter in the water and not swimming the opposite if the old 56 Chevys with the big tires in back looked like they were always going down a hill.
I think the original poster hit it on the head. Took some lessons and got better and now isn't faster without the pullbouy.

I am usually a bit slower with a pull buoy.

Nope, gotta disagree with that. For folks who can not kick, or have poor body position or both then adding a PB will help. For those of us who kick and have good body position adding a PB only takes away one component of propulsion. For me personally I am (was) a kicker. Prior to a few ankle surgeries and 15 years ago when I swam full time I could swim 100's on 1:05 all day long holding everyone well below a minute. Add a PB to the mix and i would struggle to make 1:10's. Now after my surgeries and whole lot less swimming fitness the intervals are slower, but I am still the same, adding a PB slows me down.

As for you comment about PB and Paddles, that is simply a silly comparison to make. It's like trying to compare times speed between a guy riding a full on Tri bike to the same guy riding a mountain bike. Paddles are a huge aid in propulsion, they ad far more overall speed than a strong sustainable kick can add. Case in point I did a WO a few weeks back alternating between swimming an pulling with paddles. my 100 pace with paddles was right around 1 minute to just below a minute while my 100 pace while swimming was closer to 1:08- 1:10, however my effort level and HR (125-135) remained the same.

As far as suggesting that every one should use paddles you are on your own there. I certainly would not promote that. Paddles are for swimmers who are well developed with good technique and shoulder strength, and no history of shoulder problems. Slapping paddles on a Novice swimmer, which most triathletes are, is a sure fired way to get serious shoulder problems and screw up technique.

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

I ALWAYS swim faster with the pull buoy.

I use less oxygen (my HR bears this out as it's lower with the pull buoy) since I'm not kicking. Kicking seems to use up a lot of O2.

In fact, sometimes I do my race TT's with the pull buoy, because it's VERY close to the speed I go with a wetsuit, simply due to the buoyancy factor. Plus, I tend not to kick too much while wearing the wetsuit.

Now, since I've improved my overall swimming, I'm not THAT much faster with the pull buoy as I used to be, but I'm still faster with it than without it.

[reply]I ALWAYS swim faster with the pull buoy.

I use less oxygen (my HR bears this out as it's lower with the pull buoy) since I'm not kicking. Kicking seems to use up a lot of O2.

In fact, sometimes I do my race TT's with the pull buoy, because it's VERY close to the speed I go with a wetsuit, simply due to the buoyancy factor. Plus, I tend not to kick too much while wearing the wetsuit.

Now, since I've improved my overall swimming, I'm not THAT much faster with the pull buoy as I used to be, but I'm still faster with it than without it.[/reply]

In other words if you simply maintained good position without kicking much or at all without a pull buoy you would go just as fast.

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Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Hey one_lap -

All the confirmation you needed can be found in efernand's post.

BTW, I took a Stern clinic last winter and also have been diligently doing the drills. It works.

MAYBE, but I think the pull buoy puts my legs in a "less draggy" position. And with legs clamped together, when you rotate, it's the full unit rotating, so I think I'm slipping through the water better than if I were kicking, or not kicking yet my hips wouldn't be as high up as they are with the buoy.

So maybe I am a crappy swimmer. Whatever. Just reporting observations.

Kac94, you hit the nail on the head.

Swimming without kicking (i.e., with a pull buoy) doesn't make you faster, but swimming with a very drag-heavy, inefficient kick DOES slow you down.

I swim faster with a pull buoy than I do without. Why? Because my kick generates more drag than propulsion, especially when I start to tire.

I am working with fins, with stretching, and with kick-specific drills to improve this situation, but I know exactly what the OP is referring to.

mm

I have found that I can hold a higher pace at the same effort while using a pull bouy up to a certain point. I've never really been a very good distance swimmer, I swam 100's and 200's in HS and masters comp before taking up tris. For example I can easily swim 10x100 on 1:30 going about 1:15's without a buoy, but I can go 1:10's with it. Of course all out I can only go about 1:00 with the buoy, whereas I can go 53 or 54 without it.



Ed

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