Is there any reason to not do this more than once a week?

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I've toyed with the idea of doing two a week, but I've never been able to find a repuatble coach or program that does that, so I'm a little hesitant.

Typicaly its hard to fit in a second one once you balance out the rest of your schedule....especialy when training for three sports.

When I was doing "run only" training, I'd start out with no workouts a week (out of shape) then add in my 1st workout (long run) than eventualy my second (tempo run) then my 3rd (200s or 400s......these will be explained next week). So you can see that a second tempo run doesn't really fit.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Hello Barry, I like this post and it hilites a missing link in my triathlon program for years. The bottom line is that I have difficulty fitting this tempo run in given the other key workouts of the week (1 long bike, 1 long run, bike threshold or intervals, bike hills big gear work, at least 1 hard swim per week).

Fortunately during race season I race every second week, so I am never far removed from my previous tempo run. That being said, for the time limited triathlete (not time from a sheer time perspective, but someone trying to do a variety of tough workouts per week with limited recovery time in between), what about the concept of doing 20 min of tempo work at half Ironman race pace at the end of a 2 hour run (ie from 1:30-1:50 min and then shut it down with 10 min easy)? I've actually been going to the track at the end of my 2 hour runs and doing a 2 mile and 1 mile tempo stretch at HIM race pace (for me, 7 min mile pace). The nice thing about going to the track, is that it allows me to get in tune with my pace every 200m (~52 seconds).

Barry..

I can't possibly cut and paste another 'tip'o the day' of solid running info I must have.

Plez go to your local copy center and make me a Barry's Running Guide

I'll pay you!

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It's not a bad idea, but I don't think HIM pace is going to quite do the trick. You should still be well below LT at HIM pace.

How about droping one workout a week in place of a tempo run? ie, week one is a tempo run instead of a hard swim, week two is a tempo run instead of a hard bike, week three is a tempo run instead of a long run.....or sut the mileage of the long run and do the tempo for the last 20 minutes, week four is no tempo run....etc.

Or at leats try to work in the tempo every other week.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Coach Barry,

I changed my run training this year to include HR fartlek's instead of track work and a 30 minute tempo run. I knocked a 50 seconds per mile off of my 10K at the end of an Oly........the combo made the difference, but I put a lot of weight on tempo.

Thanks for the reinforcement

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http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/

Is a tempo run better than doing LT intervals? (I typically do 3-4 10 min intervals with 5 min rest). If so, why?

I couldn't agree more. Tempo running is the only hard running I do and it has paid big time over the last year. I went from 1h33-35 for HIM run split to under 1:28 this year. This will be my main focus this winter gradually increasing the tempo run up to 40-45'.



Derek

Very good post. Thanks. And BTW, I hate tempo runs.

"Most people don't know what the hell they are doing on a track"

Turn left. Repeat. Not that hard. ;)

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

What is all this mindless banter?

Dan, please delete all posts after the post by The Sergio. With his word, the thread ended.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

An un solicited opinion, but by my definition a 10 mile run cannot be a tempo run. Its to far. Tempo runs are done at a bit slower than 10 km pace.



Styrrell

An un solicited opinion, but by my definition a 10 mile run cannot be a tempo run. Its to far. Tempo runs are done at a bit slower than 10 km pace.

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Yes. Some people will slow them down a bit and extend them up to an hour. IMO, it is best to mix up your workouts. Do some AT LT pace, some a little shorter and faster, and some a little longer and slower.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Check out what I wrote about this in a previous post to BarryP:

"Let me clarify that my definition of a tempo run is a run that is performed at or slightly above LT for a constant period of time, typically 30-45 minutes, or, even 60 minutes sometimes. Tempo runs and LT runs provide the same stimulus, i.e. raising lactate threshold. Some people--and I see it on this board a lot--refer to a tempo run as something performed well below LT pace.

So when you have reached the point in your training when your ready for LT runs you have two choices--intervals or tempo runs. The reason I said I would do intervals is because you will be spending less time at LT for a fixed time, thus, stressing your body less. Take for example the OP, he wants to do a 1 hour tempo run, which is 40 minutes at LT, assuming 10 min warm-up and 10 min cool down. My rule of thumb is that if I am doing back-to-back hard days that include LT work, I will employ LT intervals versus a tempo workout. Something like 4x6min at LT pace with a 4 minute rest interval. Assume again 10min warm-up, 10min cool down, and you are at 60 minutes. This would be my preference.

My post assumed that the OP was using my definition of tempo run, which is likely not true."

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

I actually prefer to do my tempo runs on a track. If you know the pace you should be running the track or treadmill is an ideal place to do tempo runs. You can set a consistent pace from start to finish while teachign yourself how to pace these efforts. If I look back through my logs I can find multiple examples of 3-4 mile tempo runs on the track where every the variation from my fastest to slowest lap was less than :01.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I know some who have done 3x2000 in a similar fashion. Personaly I prefer the shorter breaks. I've never tried them with longer rest so I can't really comment.

You can also do a warmup, 20 minute tempo, 2-3 mile run, 20 minute tempo, cool down.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

BarryP, desert dude, Paulo, trukweaz,

What would be a good estimate for your race pace for an Oly or HIM from your stand alone 10K or ½ marathon? Considering proper training and adequate pacing throughout the swim and the bike, in ‘general’ you should expect to run 3 to 5% slower for strong runners and over 5% for those not so strong?

IOW and using Daniels approach; an athlete could use M pace for goal pace runs when training for a HIM? T pace for an Oly?

Jorge

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Jorge Martinez
Head Coach - Sports Science
E3 Training Solutions, LLC
@CoachJorgeM

You've got it absolutely right, Coach. LT runs have always been a mainstay of my training.

Plez go to your local copy center and make me a Barry's Running Guide

I'll pay you!
_____________________________

I've toyed with the idea. ; ^ )

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Jorge, for many the HIM run split can be highly uncorrelated with half marathon run speed. The biggest determinant is swim and bike fitness, then swim and bike pacing. If you have a huge swim-bike base and great execution, in my experience you might be able to get with 4-8 min minutes of straight out half marathon time. Since an Olympic tri involves less swim bike time first (~1:20 - 1:40, vs 3:00 to 3:45), you can get within a minute of your flat out 10K time.

By the way, I woundn't aski Kurt :-). Maybe some of his athletes are close to their half marathon time in HIM, but he has a long way to go (sorry Kurt...I could not resist...). He needs to learn how to swim too :-)

Dev

DD, I totally agree. I can see my variation every 200m when I do the tempo stuff at the track. And on a treadmill, you have no choice.

Barry, are you suggesting tempo running at <7 min pace for me? My half Ironman runs are in the 1:28 - 1:34 range this year. At these speeds, my perceived exertion is no different than in a 10K open race, mainly because of 3 hours of hammerfest swimming and biking before. I don't see any point in running much faster in training. I'd rather save my legs for racing and not race in training.

Then again, I race every second weekend, so I'm doing many tempo runs. I did 10 races that involved running hard this year (5xHalf Ironman, 1xIronman, 1xMuskoka (15K run), 1xHalf marathon, 2x10K). I'm not sure if adding any more run intensity in the year is that wise, which is why I keep it maxed out at 7 min per mile outdoors (or 9 mph on treadmill which is more forgiving...). I do more tempo running when I go for long stretches (4-6 weeks) with no racing.

Dev

Nothing has improved my run splits more than incorporating a tempo run into my weekly schedule. Excellent write-up and advice. Thanks.

~~~

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- Matt

Brian

Regarding the pace on a Treadmill. Is it more important to maintain the same pace, or recognizing that x.xx min/mile on the treadmill is y.yy min/mile in the real world - to try and correlate the two?

Thanks for your input.

DB

Barry

Thanks for your posts. If you're not careful, this might turn into a running forum and not a cycling forum!! Do you know if Cervelo will be making running shoes anytime soon.

Seriously though, I for one would be very interested in a 'summary' of your running posts / thoughts.

Again thanks

DB

Dave,

Good to hear from you. Hope all is well.

I do this when running on a treadmill. I take the pace per mile that I would normally run in the real world. I start there. I may have to adjust the treadmill a touch to get to the proper feel. I have also found out fromthe opening runs of duathlons and open road races if I am doing my LT work at 10.3mph on the treadmill (5:52 pace per mile) then I know I am going to be running about 5:55ish pace in the real world. Correlate pace outside with pace inside then adjust for "feel".

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

[reply][reply]
but there is nothing to preclude doing them on the track, right? I'm just learning how to do these runs so for my first few allows a steady consistent surface. [/reply]
I actually prefer to do my tempo runs on a track. [/reply]

absolutely. Following Lydiard, I've always called these 'time trials' rather than 'tempo', though that tends to confuse folks who think of a 'time trial' as a full race effort. But yes, I do 5-8k on tracks: as well as the pacing effort guide, it also gives a good measure of whether your training is working (like Mark Allen's HRM test runs). If the effort is the same or higher than last time, and the time is not better, then something may be going wrong..

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview