Wow Dave, that could not have been easy. Almost surprised to see HOKA move up so quickly, but knowing the shoe personally, I can see why. They are the Cervelo of the triathlon shoe world, soon to be #1 if this trend holds for another year. I would like to see a Hawaii count this year, wonder if it would mirror this race? Probably not as much HOKA as the world as of yet does not have such good access to them, but soon i bet. You have any plans for a count over on the island? I will be there this year, I almost want to volunteer to count, almost..I spent too many years counting those dam bikes on that pier, it sounds a lot sexier than it really is..

Interesting. Surprised to see Saucony down at #4. Kinvara losing some of it's luster or just more of a marathon/ironman shoe for people?

Any comments on what you thought of people's shoe choices? Making the wrong/ right choices and why?

Monty,

The Hoka count doesn't surprise me. It's prevalent here on the coast. I think the count is part the sport and part regional. I've been doing counts all year. In running events they are about 5% of the count on the West Coast and about 3% on the east coast. I'm half way through the LA Marathon and it will probably end up in the 3-4% range. You are right with Kona being a global event and Hoka being a US focused brand I would expect it to go up but not get into percentage like we see here.
Yes I'm doing the count in Kona this year. I'll take any help I can get.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

The count is regionally based. Saucony is much much more successful in the Midwest and on the East Coast then it is here in the west. I'm confident in Kona the Kinvara will hold it's spot at the top. I would also expect the NB Zante and the Brooks Launch 2 to be up there too. Both shoes are showing up quickly in races both triathlon and running.

In general I think people make good choices based on what I see in running form. There are still runners overly crushing the Clifton and people rolling to over-pronation in Newton but they were still running and I think that says a great deal. I did hear quite a few of the pro women wearing Asics really slapping the ground. I think part of it was the outsole on the shoe they were using but maybe the shoe was just too stiff too.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Dave, can you tell me what you mean by: "Triathletes have fully accepted flat bottom construction"

also, parenthetically, and while i don't often like to crow or horn toot, we here (slowtwitch) supported hoka early and often. ironman and its corporate cohort supported newton early and often. hoka power and slowtwitch power seem powered by a similar power. that's all i'm going to say about that.

of course, hoka makes its own sales, slowtwitch independent, through being a great product. i championed that shoe's features for 2 years without any kind of partnership or advertising, just because the brand and its features were right for triathletes - and that's back when the owners of that brand thought they were only making an ultradistance trail shoe.

for some years, going forward, you will find hoka polling better among triathletes than general runners, because triathlon is the window through which hoka has been introduced to general running. if you look at this race, in oceanside, and why hoka is so popular here, one of the very early adopters of this shoe was nytro. way before anybody else in retail, including roadrunner. it is nytro who built hoka's 13% market share in this race.

when hoka's market share in general running in san diego (at the upcoming carlsbad 5000, for example) is also seen to be large, no, it won't have been nytro who sold all those runners all those shoes. but without nytro's early adoption of that shoe carlsbad's hoka numbers would not be as large.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It can also be a little bit of lift of the foot on the inside of the shoe resulting some of that slap. Has been my experience in some of the "racier" Asics models on the women's side, as (with the DS-Racer, for instance) traditionally has been a unisex shoe that features a pretty poor wrap of the foot for female racers.

Love the data work, Dave. If you need any help on the East Coast (specifically the northeast), give a shout and I'm there!

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Slowman when you started running everything was flat bottom. Then I believe Asics but it might have been Brooks came out with the first midfoot bridge that took weight (typically heavy rubber) out of the middle of the shoe and replaced it with a TPU piece to provide the support. For a good 15-20 years that was the choice construction by brands. Then minimalism came around and as predicted the shoe industry changed by deconstructing many shoes. There was also at the same time a huge push to create better foams and better outsole materials. Nike was the leader in this with Free and Lunar. The Free and Lunar Racer, Lunar Glide (now 6 years in the making) are all flat to the ground shoes. Out of minimalism we were given the Kinvara which was just about the perfect running shoe. So simple in construction yet so dynamic in feel. The dyamic feel came from the design of the midsole working with the natural (or unnatural) surface of the road. During all of this work two guys in France were working on your favorite new brand, Hoka. Yesterday at the race a very large percentage of the athletes were in shoes constructed flat to the ground without the TPU midfoot bridge. Hoka, Saucony Kinvara, Triumph ISO, NB Fresh Foam 980 and Zante, Nike Lunar Glide, Brooks Pure Flow, Glycerin, Ghost, Altra, Asics 33 series Zoot Solana/ali'i and more.
I specifically called this out because I've been doing analysis at running events too. Runners are not as fast at adopting new. They tend to stick to what works until it doesn't work anymore. The top shoes at running events are the Asics GT 2000, Kayano and Nimbus. All exceptionally good shoes but all built with a midfoot bridge.
It is my belief that once you run in a shoe that is flat to the ground you won't want to go back to a shoe built with a midfoot bridge.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Can I ask what the conventional wisdom on "On" is? (If there is one). I'm asking market share, thoughts of it as a tri shoe, do elites ever wear them...I have a pair and quite like them but I've never seen anyone else wear them. (I ran Around the Bay race in Hamilton today and didn't see a single person wear them...at least where I was.)

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

On was created by Oliver Bernard former Swiss Triathlon star and his agent so there is a direct connection to Triathlon. In Southern California they are represented by the or at least one of the best sales agencies. These two things account for their Market Share. Both Fredric Van Lierde (2013 IM World Champ) and Caroline Steffen endorse the brand. There were a couple pros wearing the shoes yesterday. The two shoes seen the most were the Cloud Racer and the Cloud.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Well they have my endorsement as well! The sky is the limit now!

Thanks very much. The cloudracer is the one I have. Crazy comfortable.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Dave,

I have found it to be true that it's hard to go back to a midfoot bridge shoe. I ran in Kayanos and 2000, races in DS Trainers for most of my running/tri life. Since I have tried out Kinvaras and Hoka Conquests, I just can't seem to enjoy running in my 200's anymore. I love the fit of Asics, I'll have to give some 33 series shoes a try.

As for your comment on people wearing Cliftons, it reminds me of when the Pegasus was reborn and was realistically a good shoe for about 5% of runners, but it just felt too good. I'd love to see how bad many are crushing it in in the medial side! Seems the Huaka would be a better model, but us triathletes are counting ounces and multiplying that by steps to find energy savings!

thanks. i wasn't current with the terminology. when i write about the features of hokas that i find important, one of them is the lack of a sculpted or carved arch. this isn't the same as what you're talking about. somewhere maybe i have a pair of old reebok london TC that i loved back at the time, and they did have a sculpted arch, but they would still have qualified as flat bottomed, in that they did not have a discontinuation of the mid/outsole. it just got very narrow as it progressed from heel to forefoot. sort of an isthmus.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"I'd love to see how bad many are crushing it in in the medial side!"

the clifton is a monumentally better shoe for overpronators than the pegasus. the pegasus had virtually nothing to keep a shoe from collapsing medially. the clifton has that (typical of this brand) upper sunken into a midsole that wraps the upper.

still, it's not what the bondi has. so i'll race in the clifton but, as an overpronator, i'd never train in it.

the huaka, honestly, i have a pair, i just cannot get excited about this shoe. it's either clifton or bondi for me.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

We are saying the same thing. They carved out the the entire midfoot and replaced it with TPU. Now they build them symmetrically filling in under the arch all the way to the ground creating a flat to the ground ride. Many racing flats line that Reebok you refer to simply carved out the arch to save weight. They have found other ways to save weight. Not many carved out arches anymore.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

I think one of the new devices that will help determine what works best for you in terms of racing shoe is the Strider (run Power Meter not out yet). My theory is that overpronating in a racing shoe will require more power to run. Unless you are under 5'8" and weigh 120lbs like the African runners(they tend to be so efficient that their feet are never on the ground long enough to matter). I say this because I see it in video in slow motion at it looks like the athlete is really working to overcome what is happening down at the feet. I'll make an attempt the next time I see it on video to take the section of video and share it with people. Regular running shoes like the Pegasus or others show up on my videos with people over-pronating too. I don't believe the issue with the Clifton is the midsole design I believe is the soft durometer (45) specifically in hot conditions that is the cause. I believe the Bondi or maybe even the Conquest 2 would make a better race day shoe for these guys (it's mostly guys) because a foot that tracks to center should feel better and be more efficient requiring less power. My theory of course.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

I do not believe that the strider will be able to measure what you are thinking it is measuring. Strider simply measures the acceleration of your body.

I could see that there may be an efficiency change here, but how would it require less power as the strider measures it? If you are going the same pace with the same mass, the power measured will be the same. Now generating this power may be easier or you can hold that power for longer, but going the same pace will really show up as the same power.

I demo'd some Cliftons for a 400s workout on mixed surface, about an hour total. During warm up at 7:30-8:00 pace, they just felt too squishy. My foot felt the same in them though. When the workout started and I was up to 5K pace for the 400s, they felt great. I ain't running any half or dulls at 5K pace and at 168 lbs, a 45 durometer isn't the most efficient for me.

My last two pace workouts (IM AND 70.3) were done in Conquests one week and Zoom Elite 7s the next. My feet felt 1000 times better in the Conquests, primarily because my feet were tracking in the center and not crashing at the midfoot. The Elites have a curved last with no posting that cause me to do this.

Maybe the Strider can't measure it.
The guys at the front of the American pack at the LA Marathon who were wearing Hoka were all wearing the Huaka Why? Because it's the most firm and light of the shoes. They choose not to run in the Clifton because it's so soft. My translation of that decision is efficiency. It would require them to use more power to run the same pace in the softer shoe. I feel the same way when I see in slow motion a foot that is falling off the edge of the Clifton in an over-pronated stance. I feel a should like the Bondi could hold that foot up better and the runner would be more efficient.
On the flip side there are athletes running amazingly fast in the Clifton. Beth Gerdes ran fast in Melbourne in the Clifton. Beth however is quite small and doesn't compress that Clifton very much.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Thanks Dave!
Really been enjoying the site....and the Solana...

Hope you are well.

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Superfly Coaching
http://www.superflycoaching.com/eric

IL PIRATA VI GUARDA

Interesting discussion about the Huaka. For me, at sub-150 lbs, there's nothing that the Huaka does that the Lunaracer (or the Lunar Tempo) doesn't do better. The Huaka feels like a big, stiff brick to me. The Lunaracer is lighter, feels better underfoot, has a better upper, and feels just as cushioned as the Huaka. Maybe if I were heavier I'd notice the additional cushioning in the Huaka, but I find that it's a "flat" shoe that just doesn't have any flex to the sole at all and has no "pop" under foot.

Now, if I could just get the Lunaracer to last more than 200 miles. I'm hoping the Lunar Tempo will be the magic cushy training shoe to match the Lunaracer as the magic cushy racing shoe.

Are Adidas not that popular with triathletes compared to runners? Do you notice a lot of people wearing flats or a 'fast' shoes when their pace/gait don't justify it?

"I don't believe the issue with the Clifton is the midsole design I believe is the soft durometer (45) specifically in hot conditions that is the cause. I believe the Bondi or maybe even the Conquest 2 would make a better race day shoe for these guys"

if the clifton's soft durometer bothers people i doubt those people would like the bondi much better. they would want the conquest.

but this is why i think hoka is the triathlete's shoe. the typical elite runner might be 130lb at an average. typical long distance triathlete? more like 160lb. the guys i'm talking about. and that's the typical elite, not AG, triathlete.

this person will want the softer shoe, i think, as long as it's light, because leg soreness becomes such a pace inhibitor later in the run.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think you're spot on with this. I'll race in my Lunaracer up to 70.3 (if I'm fit and am racing my 'A' 70.3 race) at 168lbs. If I were under 150, I'd be comparing a Clifton to a Lunar Tempo for 70.3 and IM races and go with what feels best at race pace. I just know that when running in my Conquests at 168-175lbs, I have more to give at the end of long runs and/or race pace efforts (and feel fresher the next day). In my head, that means less slowing down at the end of a 13.1 or 26.2 mile run in a triathlon ("It's who slows down the least," is a quote I remember hearing about long-course).

A triathlete's search for the lightest shoe period, should be changed to a search for the lightest shoe that properly supports the runner.

Throw adidas in with the Flat to Ground discussion. The Energy Boost, Ultra Boost and adios Boost were the three shoes in the race for adidas. All are built flat to the ground. Overall I think their popularity in triathlon in the USA is the same as running in the USA. Outside the USA they would be in the top 3 brands overall in both running and triathlon triathlon events.

Yes, I see people in flats or lightweight shoes that shouldn't be in them. I look at events and even do shoe analysis this way. I group the count into those who are racing and those who are participating. The mindsets. When I see people who are "racing", giving up speed because of poor shoe choice I comment. Slowman said having a shoe that leaves you beat up the last few miles vs one that keeps the pounding away (same idea as giving up speed). When I see people participating running in a flat my only thought is "Your legs are going to hurt tomorrow".

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed