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2 beat kick: Can I still be fast?
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I'm an adult onset swimmer. I've adopted the 2 beat kick since my primary objective is long races 70.3 and 140.6.

I always see these crazy times on ST from fishes. I know with a 2 beat kick I'm saving my legs but can I still be fast?

I always see these times for 1500m and I'm amazed. Is anyone fast using the 2 beat kick?

Or should I accept I won't be fast with a 2 beat kick?
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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mercuryvapor wrote:
I'm an adult onset swimmer. I've adopted the 2 beat kick since my primary objective is long races 70.3 and 140.6.

I always see these crazy times on ST from fishes. I know with a 2 beat kick I'm saving my legs but can I still be fast?

I always see these times for 1500m and I'm amazed. Is anyone fast using the 2 beat kick?

Or should I accept I won't be fast with a 2 beat kick?

You do realize that Andy Potts uses a two beat quick once he settles in.


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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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mercuryvapor wrote:
I'm an adult onset swimmer. I've adopted the 2 beat kick since my primary objective is long races 70.3 and 140.6.

I always see these crazy times on ST from fishes. I know with a 2 beat kick I'm saving my legs but can I still be fast?

I always see these times for 1500m and I'm amazed. Is anyone fast using the 2 beat kick?

Or should I accept I won't be fast with a 2 beat kick?

You tell me.

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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I guess Potts is good enough evidence for me.

Damn..... I have no more excuses now.
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
mercuryvapor wrote:
Is anyone fast using the 2 beat kick?


You tell me.

I know the answer! Yes.

In all seriousness, I will kick just enough to get out with the front pack and kick the last 200m or so to get the legs warmed up for the bike. Everything else is just enough (2 beat for me as well) to keep the legs/feet from creating drag while I swim.

Disclaimer: I am not fast. Well, fast is relative I guess.

Formerly TriBrad02
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
mercuryvapor wrote:
I'm an adult onset swimmer. I've adopted the 2 beat kick since my primary objective is long races 70.3 and 140.6.

I always see these crazy times on ST from fishes. I know with a 2 beat kick I'm saving my legs but can I still be fast?

I always see these times for 1500m and I'm amazed. Is anyone fast using the 2 beat kick?

Or should I accept I won't be fast with a 2 beat kick?

You tell me.

Wow! Case officially closed. That was amazing.
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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I don't kick at all during long course races and just did 1:02. Not blistering speed by any means, but not bad all things considered.

At masters I do a 6 beat kick because I'm trying to hang on to actual swimmers who know what they are doing :).

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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mercuryvapor wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
mercuryvapor wrote:
I'm an adult onset swimmer. I've adopted the 2 beat kick since my primary objective is long races 70.3 and 140.6.

I always see these crazy times on ST from fishes. I know with a 2 beat kick I'm saving my legs but can I still be fast?

I always see these times for 1500m and I'm amazed. Is anyone fast using the 2 beat kick?

Or should I accept I won't be fast with a 2 beat kick?

You tell me.

Wow! Case officially closed. That was amazing.

Well, that doesn't close the case, it only opens the door wider to more questions. The real trick is figuring out what is best, for YOU. There is also an increasing trend to have distance (i.e. 800 and 1500) swimmers use a 6 beat kick more and more.

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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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mercuryvapor wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
mercuryvapor wrote:
I'm an adult onset swimmer. I've adopted the 2 beat kick since my primary objective is long races 70.3 and 140.6.

I always see these crazy times on ST from fishes. I know with a 2 beat kick I'm saving my legs but can I still be fast?

I always see these times for 1500m and I'm amazed. Is anyone fast using the 2 beat kick?

Or should I accept I won't be fast with a 2 beat kick?


You tell me.


Wow! Case officially closed. That was amazing.

Not only a 2-beat kick but she appears to lift her head just a bit when breathing, but her turnover and her obvious hold on the water are the best. Her WRs for the 400, 800, and 1500 LCM free all stood for 18 to 19 yrs, from 1988/89 to 2006 to 08. At the 88 Oly, she was 5'5" and about 98 lbs, vs the East Germans who were 6'-ish and 160-70 lbs. So, you don't have to be 6'4" and 195 to swim fast:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I just found a talk that Bruce gemell gave just after 2013 worlds, when Ledecky broke the world record. It was pretty interesting, but oneofthe most interesting things was the bit where he breaks down the typical attributes of a world class distance swimmer and compares that to Ledecky.

. Go to about 2:15 into the presentation.

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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I just found a talk that Bruce gemell gave just after 2013 worlds, when Ledecky broke the world record. It was pretty interesting, but oneofthe most interesting things was the bit where he breaks down the typical attributes of a world class distance swimmer and compares that to Ledecky.

. Go to about 2:15 into the presentation.

That was quite interesting, espec when he says she's not that great at pulling or kicking when the two are isolated, but obv she puts the two together really well. Sounds like he feels that her fierce competitiveness and strong family support are pretty crucial.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Thought you would like that.

It's not just competitiveness though. I think it is that competitiveness in an environment where she can compete every single day in training.

What I also found really interesting is that she wasnt swimming with a high performance senior club a la NBAC or SwimMAC. The way Gemmell describes it, It's just an AG club team that gets kicked out of their pool for various special events and has no on-site gym/dryland, and the head coach is training 10&u's as well as the "senior" squad, who are all 15 or 16 at the time of this presentation.

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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Thought you would like that.

It's not just competitiveness though. I think it is that competitiveness in an environment where she can compete every single day in training.

What I also found really interesting is that she wasnt swimming with a high performance senior club a la NBAC or SwimMAC. The way Gemmell describes it, It's just an AG club team that gets kicked out of their pool for various special events and has no on-site gym/dryland, and the head coach is training 10&u's as well as the "senior" squad, who are all 15 or 16 at the time of this presentation.

Uber talent doesn't need high level facilities to thrive. Look at all the guys in the NBA who literally play in slumlord lots with busted rims and dodging drug dealers all day.

The excellent coaching and environment becomes crucial for the not-uber talented, and especially the not talented.

Unfortunately, at the highest levels, it's almost all about talent. Sure, they need SOME coaching for something technical like swimming, but make no mistake that the coaching was NOT what got her there. Put literally any other swimmer in that position, and no world champion, might not even be a local champion.
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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That's not what I take from his talk at all. He's describing a kid with not a lot of natural feel for the water, not particularly tall, kinda clumsy, not very strong, etc. but ridiculously competitive, and with a group of others who will push each other every day. It's no coincidence that he describes the best 500y times of his top swimmers as being within 5 seconds of one another.

That's the same thing happening in your nba example. Daily competition and inner drive to be the best.

Of course Ledecky is special and talented. But what exactly is that talent? Sounds like Katie's biggest talent in the one between her ears.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Sep 1, 14 6:25
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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Think of your legs and kick not so much for forward propulsion, but instead more like a cat's tail to provide balance. Kick laps hard in a pool and see how exhausted you get versus how incredibly slow it is. It's obviously a terribly inefficient mode of transportation. Spend your calories and oxygen in your arms instead and preserve your legs and you'll go really far, fast, and at a wonderfully sustainable effort that is great for long distance.

Hard or extra kicking is like turbo boost. It's nice to have when you need it, but you don't need it all the time. And if you burn up your calories in training on your legs, you're not providing the fuel and time spent on improving your arms and shoulders. Your arms and shoulders are the parts that need the most work, because they provide the huge majority of sustainable propulsion in a longer race.

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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [mercuryvapor] [ In reply to ]
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I'd also like to point you towards Laure Manaudou: https://www.youtube.com/...e81gjbAA&t=3m50s
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
That's not what I take from his talk at all. He's describing a kid with not a lot of natural feel for the water, not particularly tall, kinda clumsy, not very strong, etc. but ridiculously competitive, and with a group of others who will push each other every day. It's no coincidence that he describes the best 500y times of his top swimmers as being within 5 seconds of one another.

That's the same thing happening in your nba example. Daily competition and inner drive to be the best.

Of course Ledecky is special and talented. But what exactly is that talent? Sounds like Katie's biggest talent in the one between her ears.

Still, you will almost certainly NOT get a Ledecky putting any other swimmer there. You may not even get a regional champion swimmer, actually.
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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By definition actually. There is only one "best in the world" at any time, and how many other swimmers have held the 400 /800 / 1500 records at the same time. I don't think Bruce is claiming that he has some magic championship decoder ring either. There are plenty of other clubs doing pretty much the same thing as he is doing at Nations Capital and yuri did before Bruce got there.

My feeling though is that it isn't talent that got her there, at least her coach doesn't think so. Not "talent" in the physical sense anyway. I generally hate referring to "talent" anyway, as it is too easily used as an excuse (I didn't swim as fast as her because she's more talented, waaaa) or it subtly undermines the amount of hard work that goes into creating a champion.

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Sep 1, 14 7:58
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
By definition actually. There is only one "best in the world" at any time, and how many other swimmers have held the 400 /800 / 1500 records at the same time. I don't think Bruce is claiming that he has some magic championship decoder ring either. There are plenty of other clubs doing pretty much the same thing as he is doing at Nations Capital and yuri did before Bruce got there.

My feeling though is that it isn't talent that got her there, at least her coach doesn't think so. Not "talent" in the physical sense anyway. I generally hate referring to "talent" anyway, as it is too easily used as an excuse (I didn't swim as fast as her because she's more talented, waaaa) or it subtly undermines the amount of hard work that goes into creating a champion.


I'll disagree with you on the talent issue for her. I will say it is mostly talent that got her there. Not a stretch considering she's breaking world records. Yes, she still has to swim like ridiculous yardage per week for years starting from childhood, and yes, if I did that, I'd probably be a top regional swimmer, but to say it's mostly hard work to break world records? Not by a longshot.

There are literally thousands of female swimmers who have trained along the lines of her, and could not break world records.

I still think the vast majority of athletes and general public misunderstand how much training and hard work these champions put into their craft, but it is true that at that world-record level, distinguishing yourself from your peers is ALL about talent.

At my lowly AG level, and even at elite amateur levels, it is all about hard work, and not talent. But Katie Ledecky is nowhere near this pedestrian level of swimming. Talent, talent, and more talent. She could literally not train seriously and crush AG amateurs just by her talent alone.


Interesingly, I recently read a book about a journalist who went to Kenya to train with the Kenyans to observe what makes them run champions. His conclusion, and the one he says all the scientists/coaches before conclude is that 'it is multifactorial.' From reading his book, I TOTALLY disagree. It is clearly, stunningly obvious from reading his book, that it is ALL about talent. Yes, those Kenyans love their running, and they take it seriously, but they literally are finding runners who are going 15 minutes for 5k with almost zero training to start with. And none of the foreigners who come over to live/train with them can replicate what the Kenyans can do, and even more, when the Kenyans leave Kenya and train/race elsewhere, they stay dominant. (Even the Ethiopians from the similar genetic tribe have the same effect.) That author observed so many Kenyans with highly doubtful training methods (dropping out often on training runs), no idea how to race (something like near 50% of the field drops out in the first half of a short-distance race made up of serious runners from Kenya), and they had no special coaching program that allowed the production of top athletes. In fact, the best 'coach' in their country was actually a foreign teacher who was more of a promoter of their entire talent, and thus allowed the world to 'discover' them. Talent, talent, and more talent, for world-beating performances.
Last edited by: lightheir: Sep 1, 14 8:33
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
By definition actually. There is only one "best in the world" at any time, and how many other swimmers have held the 400 /800 / 1500 records at the same time. I don't think Bruce is claiming that he has some magic championship decoder ring either. There are plenty of other clubs doing pretty much the same thing as he is doing at Nations Capital and yuri did before Bruce got there.

My feeling though is that it isn't talent that got her there, at least her coach doesn't think so. Not "talent" in the physical sense anyway. I generally hate referring to "talent" anyway, as it is too easily used as an excuse (I didn't swim as fast as her because she's more talented, waaaa) or it subtly undermines the amount of hard work that goes into creating a champion.

I think perhaps the definition of "talent" that Ledecky's coach is using is a good bit more strenuous than my definition would be. For example, he says Katie is only an "average kicker" because she can "only" kick 1:18/100 scy leaving on the 1:30 but, for your "average swimmer", doing 1:18 scy on 1:30 via just kicking is pretty damn fast IMO. It is only in the skewed world of super fast swimmers that this 1:18/100 scy kick speed is considered average. His pulling example was that she could "only" pull 200s (scy) in 2:15 on the 2:30, same thing, still pretty damn fast for your average HS swimmer who maybe swims 2:15 for a single 200 scy free going all out. Sure, 2:15 for 200 scy is "very slow" by elite standards but it is the best that most people can do (e.g., prob 80% of the total population, NOT 80% of the USA Swimming members who are semi-elite to elite.) Just as most people will never run sub-18 for the 5K, many if not most will never swim sub-2:15 for the 200 free. "Talent" is a VERY relative term. Certainly, tons of hard work are required to develop that talent but hard work alone can not overcome lack of innate ability. We can all become "the best we can be" but our "best" may not be the best in the world:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Of course he is talking about relative to her peers, but his point is that, within the world of pretty good swimmers, not even Olympians, just pretty good club / hs / college swimmers, that pull set is not particularly good. Neither is that kick set. You can't point to any of that stuff and say "this is why she set the WR". That's where Gemmell us coming from, and he's talking to a room full of other swim coaches.

Don't forget, she's also been swimming since she was 6, so any discussion about natural talent has to be tempered with the talent that was nurtured in her. If she just started swimming competitively at 14, would she have the same "talent" that she has now? Big question, with no good answer.

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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
What I also found really interesting is that she wasnt swimming with a high performance senior club a la NBAC or SwimMAC. The way Gemmell describes it, It's just an AG club team that gets kicked out of their pool for various special events and has no on-site gym/dryland, and the head coach is training 10&u's as well as the "senior" squad, who are all 15 or 16 at the time of this presentation.

NCAP (nee Curl-Bruke before Rick Curl went to prison for covering up sex with an underage athlete) has been a top level club since the 80s. Olympic gold medalist Tom Dolan still has a bunch of their 17-18 records, and they've put a ton of swimmers onto national and international teams over the years. They have just typically been a more nomadic club than the similarly successful NBAC has been.

As for kicking, yes, there is a fair amount of technique to a good flutter kick, and if you can figure out that technique and have reasonably flexible ankles, you actually can get a good amount of power out of what looks like a light two beat kick.
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not as informed on US club swimming as you are, but I guess that proves my point even more. Either these guys are absolutely genius at recruiting 6 and 7 year olds, or they do a really good job of creating an environment where someone with the basic tools can excel.

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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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x2; also your kick provides the leverage for you torso rotation, which is where most of your propulsion comes from if you are catching and holding right - so a two beat kick is actually a nice way to simplify your stroke. I switched to a 2-beat kick a few years ago because I had a dead-zone 4 beat kick that was causing me to fish tail. I was already a FOP swimmer for my age, and I got faster w/ the 2-beat.
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Re: 2 beat kick: Can I still be fast? [mauvais poisson] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know...Sun Yang only managed to absolutely smash the WR in a time of 14:31 for the 1500m with a 2 beat kick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FlDy3YmDQ

There is no one, and I will repeat, NO ONE, with a better stroke then Sun Yang. It's absolutely astonishing how perfect his stroke is.


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