'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events

Nov 25, 07 20:09

Post #1 of 9 (1680 views)

Back in the late 80s/early 90s when I got a bit serious about running, there were no gels (as far as I know), fuel belts, etc. 'Sports drinks' meant 'Gatorade'; 'sports nutrition' meant Powerbars.

Based on casual reading in running books & magazines, I trained for marathons on a nutrition theory that went something like this...

(i) glycogen stores only last a couple of hours; hence the 'wall'
(ii) to compete past 2 hours, you needed to 'train' your body to convert to using fat as an energy source; this was the main point of long training runs
(iii) I recall controversey about whether it was better to drink water or sports drink for hydration; one theory being that giving the body 'easy' sugars impaired its ability to recruit fat as the energy source ncessary to get you to the finish.

Does anybody else remember these notions?

Training & racing under this model, I had my best marathon performance in '92 (sub 3 hour) eating nothing and drinking nothing but water from start to finish. So, it seemed to work to at least some extent.

Fast foward. With the proliferation of sports nutrition products, I assume very few, if any, train/race this way anymore. Are the old ideas long since discredited? Or, have they simply been overwhelmed by marketing? I don't do marathons any more, but in olympic tris I'm drinking Gatorade on the bike and eating a couple of gels during the race. Is this 'better' or have I simply become a wimp? (I don't perform anywhere close to the level I used to, but this is much more likely the result of 15 years and ~ 25 pounds than anything to do with nutrition.)

Obviously at some point (e.g. events going 5 or 10+ hours) my old notions about nutrition would have to have broken down. But, were they fundamentally deficient at the marathon level? That is, could salt tablets & GU gotten me down to 2:50 back in the day?

Thoughts/comments welcome!

Wes

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Re: 'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events [wesley] [ In reply to ]

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tridork

Nov 25, 07 20:21

Post #2 of 9 (1667 views)

"Old School" nutrition was don't eat or drink on the marathon, it will give you a stitch!

Your method is the modern stuff, just not the latest upgrade.

I thought you meant "old math" :-) nutrition, like:

Water
Cool Aid
Honey sandwiches (white bread with real butter)
Granola bars
Chocolate bars and candy
De-fizzed real Coke.

Cold beer (and lots of it) and a burger after you crossed the finish line.

I do a lot of the new nutrition stuff, but mix in some real food as well, to satiate me better and also, after IM I grab a BK double cheeseburger combo and a large strawberry shake. After a shower I grab a couple of rum n' cokes and some water. Sure I hurt the next day, but if you don't hurt the next day, you didn't race fast enough!

Old School RULES! (just the fashion looks ridiculous!)

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

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Re: 'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events [wesley] [ In reply to ]

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Frank Day

Nov 25, 07 20:42

Post #3 of 9 (1639 views)

In Reply To:

Yes, except in the really old days the sports drink was ERG and what you got at marathons was diluted, defizzed coke or water. Salt, water, and some glucose is all you need for a marathon if you are in the less than 3 hour range, IMHO, if you have trained yourself for that.

Anyhow, I think the concepts still pretty valid. I believe it is advantageous to train your body to burn fat, that means not taking in glucose in training, especially on those long rides/runs. But, it is also an advantage to train your body to take in glucose and electrolytes but it is almost impossible to take them in as fast as you burn them, if you are racing longer than 2 hours, so you need to practice that also but it is less important, IMHO, than training the ability to burn fat if you want to excel. Keeping the electrolytes balanced is the real problem for most people I suspect. So, training is a balancing act.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

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Re: 'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

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G-man

Nov 25, 07 22:25

Post #4 of 9 (1581 views)

Guys, I don't think so. I got the original Gator Aide formula from our football trainer who got it from Florida in my freshman year in college 70-71. Carried boiled potatoes, fig neutons,honey sandwiches and bananas in most every bike race over an hour, ran a marathon in 1975 with a banana and fig neutons and Gator Aide nd defizzed Coke( offered up by a bicycle rider helping us).
We didn't have all the fancy stuff, but except for the potatoes (messy) I still do about the same on long rides or races.
I never drank anything but water in a 10k run or less, but always something in 15 k or more.
It totally slays me to ride with guys that have the following on a 3-5 hr ride.
Starbucks pre ride $3-4
Gels every half hour or so $3-5
Fancy formula in waterbottles $1-2
Power bar $1-2
Jamba Juice post ride $3-5
Total ride price $10-15 While I drink water and have a banana or a couple three fig bars, less than a buck total expense.

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Re: 'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events [wesley] [ In reply to ]

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triathlonshots

Nov 26, 07 1:55

Post #5 of 9 (1540 views)

(i) glycogen stores only last a couple of hours; hence the 'wall'
(ii) to compete past 2 hours, you needed to 'train' your body to convert to using fat as an energy source; this was the main point of long training runs

I remember the above being ingrained in my mind back in the early 90's when I was at uni and doing some running with a club.

I got caught out badly though when I did a couple of events that were 6-9 hours a day.

Maybe someone could still follow the old school advice to run with the best in marathons.

Now I think to do an event well that is any longer than a marathon will require a good meal of easilly digestible nutrients about 4 hours before the event. Then I think you will need to start taking extra nutrients in small amounts from about 1 hour onwards from the start.

In an upcoming ironman I will be planning to eat a bit closer to the start time(2-3 hours before the start). I wouldn't eat for 4+ hours before a run however.

So you should try and replicate your diet in training before going hard out in an event.

The following is a link to my blog where I will put my words into action. Then I will put the resulting action into words.

http://www.triathlonshots.com/...manTrainingBlog.html

http://www.TriathlonShots.com
Full event coverage of triathlon/ironman in photos.

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Re: 'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events [wesley] [ In reply to ]

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Fleck

Nov 26, 07 6:06

Post #6 of 9 (1456 views)

Old school, new school, it does not matter. The basics of endurance nutrition are very straight-forward.

1. Your concern should only be about carbohydrates.
2. Your body has the ability to store about 2 hours worth of carbohydrates in your muscles and your liver at typical long distance training and racing paces
3. For training/racing beyond 2 hours, you need to take in abot 300 - 400 calories of carbohydrates per hour for as long as you are training racing.

That's it.

Old school - this was accomplished with Gatorade, Coke, Bananas and other "real" food - fig newtons etc. Believe it or not, almost every IM racer and IM winner did it like this up until the advent of the Powerbar in the late 80's. This past summer, I went out on a ride that was supposed to be 2 hours. It's a long story but, It ended up being 5 hours and being pretty hard. I did the whole ride on Gatorade, 5 bananas and a couple of cokes!

New School - #'s 1 - 3 are accomplished using expensive and complicated concoctions and combinations of gels, powers, bars, liquids and strange, super-concentrated mixtures that require a professional nutritionist to sort out :) Not trying to make fun, but their is a bewildering choice and range of options out there right now to help you get to that basic math of, 300 - 400 cal/hr of carbohydates

Like many things in this sport, you can make this process as simple and straight forward as you want or make it as complicated as you want. The basic fundementals and goals are the same. How you get there, is up to you.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Last edited by: Fleck: Nov 26, 07 6:10

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Re: 'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events [G-man] [ In reply to ]

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TriBodyboarder

Nov 26, 07 6:15

Post #7 of 9 (1435 views)

I tend to agree somewhat. I did IMC this last summer on Gatorade, water, fig newtons, peanut butter pretzels, and a peanut butter and banana sandwich. Granted, I'm an MOP racer (11:44), but this simple nutrition saved me alot of money.

------------------
My business-eBodyboarding.com

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Re: 'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events [TriBodyboarder] [ In reply to ]

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tri-RD

Dec 21, 07 18:35

Post #8 of 9 (1260 views)

Wesley,

It's been a while since you originally asked the question, but here is my 2 cents!
First of all, god for you for questioning science, marketing, and spending money where you don�t have to�that said, Sports Nutrition has come a long way over the past several decades, and I am sorry to say that you likely would have run your 2:50 marathon had you included optimal fluids, carbs and electrolytes back then. As for what to do now, some of the suggestions from others above still hold true; Gatorade, Fig bars, PB&Honey sandwiches and potatoes all provide carbs to working muscles during exercise and will work great (pending your pace and individual stomach tolerance). The one key aspect of sports nutrition and performance that Fleck (above) missed is hydration! Adequate carbs will only get you so far if you become dehydrated, so your BEST (and easiest) bet would be to drink a sports drink at a rate of 24-32oz/hr that contains 14-15 grams of carbs and about 200mg sodium per 8oz serving. That amount comes from the fact that the AVERAGE sweat rate is about 1liter (32oz) per hour, and our goal as athletes is to replace as much of that as possible during exercise.

Once you ensure you are staying adequately hydrated your next step is to focus on adequate carb intake. You didn�t mention your body weight/size, but a good place to start calorie wise during exercise is 150-250 calories per hour (30-60 grams of carbs per hour) depending on your size for any/all workouts over 90 minutes. This can be accomplished by taking in 6-12oz of Gatorade endurance every 15-20 minutes plus adding a few crackers, pieces of boiled potato, 1 energy gel or � an energy bar each hour...whatever method works for you. Feel free to experiment and create your own personalized nutrition plan-just be sure to include adequate fluids, electrolytes (found in sports drinks) and carbs�and maybe your marathon PR is still ahead of you�? J

Lauren Antonucci RD, CSSD
Registered Dietitian Certified as a Specialist in Sports Dietetics
Member of the Gatorade Sports Science Institute sports nutrition network

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Re: 'old school' nutrition ideas for endurance events [tri-RD] [ In reply to ]

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run2thehills

Dec 22, 07 19:11

Post #9 of 9 (1105 views)

Muscles, Speed, and Lies

Might be a book you would enjoy. The review on the link above gives a better synopsis than I could here...

I'm of the opinion that it's always better to eat real food as your body was designed to.

Organic Athlete.com has some recipes for how to make "Gu" and "Powerbars" from real food sources...dates, nuts, celery, etc...that will provide you with all the same macronutrients as listed on the wrappers of whatever the latest/greatest energy product is...but will also give you all the needed vitamins, enzymes, flavinoids, etc. that are only found in real food.

It's a lot cheaper (once you have a food processor) and a lot better for you...but does require a little work.

I always wonder why we spend so much time and money trying to remake in a synthetic form what already exists in nature...and why we are so willing to let our bodies be used as lab rats for chemical concoctions that aren't proven to do jack squat in any sort of real, hard-science, non-placebo sort of way...and in fact could be causing us serious harm.

And yes, hydration is the single most important thing you can do. Without proper absorption no amount of miracle carbs is going to make a difference. That is something which has been proven with real science ;)

Furthermore, while there is some adaptation to using fat as fuel, you still need carbohydrate to keep the body functioning. Training on an empty stomach will work once, maybe twice in a week until you have completely exhausted your glycogen stores...at which point, you might as well stay home as your not doing a bit of good for your development to be out destroying your body. You must eat to train. More in the book above on this...just doing some paraphrasing here.

____________________
Citius, Altius, Fortius.

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