Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

'Hidden' front brake aero.
Quote | Reply
Has anyone found a way to route the a side pull cable neatly with a brake that hidden within the fork like on the Boardman Air TT, Jamis Xenith T etc?

Also is there any data suggesting that a centre pull brake (Omega etc) would be more aero than the hidden brake? I’ve checked the Omega white paper and can only see reference to front mounted brakes.

JT
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [JTNero] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You can think of it like this:
no brake at all saves 8 seconds/40k
omega saves 5-6 seconds

So assuming you could hide the brake with 0 negative effect on the shape/width of the fork, you could do 2 seconds better than the omega.

Pretty hair splitting. But, the speed concept and fuji norcom may have pulled off those 2 seconds, haha.


JTNero wrote:
Has anyone found a way to route the a side pull cable neatly with a brake that hidden within the fork like on the Boardman Air TT, Jamis Xenith T etc?

Also is there any data suggesting that a centre pull brake (Omega etc) would be more aero than the hidden brake? I’ve checked the Omega white paper and can only see reference to front mounted brakes.

JT



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Good call, any idea how much drag we're talking from having a cable in the wind?
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [JTNero] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 A cable housing is .5 cm wide so .5 cm^2 per 1 cm length. If it's 14 cm long and perpendicular to the wind that's 7 cm^2. From the chart below you can see that the difference between the Omega and a DA caliper is ~11 cm^2.

My total CdA is .22 m^2 or 2200 cm^2. That's a .32% increase in my CdA or a .12% decrease in speed.

Exposed cable sucks...


Last edited by: rruff: Nov 8, 13 7:48
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [rruff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There are weird cases though, such as cable housing in front of a head tube having no overall, or even beneficial effect. Coggan didn't notice any difference with housing vs bare cable on the omega test for instance. (with a round 'head tube')





rruff wrote:
A cable housing is .5 cm wide so .5 cm^2 per 1 cm length. If it's 14 cm long and perpendicular to the wind that's 7 cm^2. From the chart below you can see that the difference between the Omega and a DA caliper is ~11 cm^2.

My total CdA is .22 m^2 or 2200 cm^2. That's a .32% increase in my CdA or a .12% decrease in speed.

Exposed cable sucks...




Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The cable housing hanging in the wind is an abomination. And the brake behind the fork crown messes up the smooth integration with the frame. It might be slightly better than a traditional sidepull in the front, but barely. And those bulky center pull brakes are kinda a joke too. This stuff is easy to eyeball...

Seems like more fancy TT bikes should have the Tririg Omega standard. Could even integrate it into the fork and bottom bracket a little.

I figure I'm giving up at least 10 seconds in a 40k TT by not having Omegas on my Trek TTT. The rear brake is made for it since the cable exits the center of the seat tube.
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
At some point, all aero bikes (both road and TT) will have truly integrated brakes like the Speed Concept and BMC TM01/TMR01. I love my S5 to death, and I have a suspicion that it's a faster frame than my buddy's TMR01, but with standard brakes and exposed brake cable, it just doesn't have the sex appeal of the TMR01.

What I predict will happen (and it will likely debut on the successor to the P5), is that Cervelo and Magura will work together to create a hydraulic brake "module" that will fit in a fork (and frame) cutout that will completely hide both brakes within the lines of the frame. This module will basically bolt-in to the frame and fork cutouts, and brake adjustment will somehow be accomplished by either screws that move the position of the module within the cutout or there is a sub-assembly within the module that moves to allow brake adjustment. With hydraulics, you are basically going to never need to adjust the brakes (unless you change wheels), but nonetheless, the adjusting screws for this could be placed in such a way that ProTour mechanics could continue to hang out of team car windows to adjust brakes on the fly. And the rear brake could be kept at its traditional seatstay location to allow for on-the-bike adjustment, since it would be integrated into the frame and you wouldn't need to "hide" it down by the BB.

I know what the numbers say, but Cervelo needs to find a way to integrate brakes into their frames. Sure they could come up with something mechanical like their competitors, but if they do that, they will only be playing catch-up. Integrated hydraulic brakes would absolutely see P5 owners lining up to buy the P6 and would do the same for S5 owners moving to the S6. But the P6 will be easier because you can use Magura's existing brake levers - getting this done on the road will be more difficult.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you know the numbers say that the P5 has better low yaw drag than the speed concept with a magura brake up front....

why must they integrate the brake?

That just makes the bike worse in every objective way =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
First of all, objectively, hidden brakes (when done right!) look super cool. So there's that. ;-)

But I don't think by comparing the SC to the P5 we can conclude that the integrated brake doesn't make the bike faster. The better comparison would be to compare the P5 with a brake to the P5 with no brake at all (since our assumption has to be that the integrated brake will not change the frame or fork shape at all, but would just occupy existing space). It seems hard not to say that with the P5-Three at least, the no brake bike wouldn't be faster. Oh and did I mention it would look cooler and sell a lot of bikes?

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Or your brake pads need adjusting, swapping out due to different run braking surface, or the pads need replacement. Many reasons brakes need to be easily accessible, especially to the common man so you're not running to the LBS every wheel swap or pad fiddling.

______________________________________________________
Sub-9 IM. Navy SeaBee deep sea diver. Can Do!
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I find it odd that you're so into aesthetics yet choose to ride an S5… ;-p
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [irontri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Understood. You would still need readily-available adjustment screws for those things. But with hydraulics, they are more or less "set it and forget it." I had a pair of Magura HS-22's (some of the very first hydraulic brakes developed for cantilever MTB bosses) on an old MTB that I sold last year. The brakes were probably installed in the mid-90's. Almost 20 years later, they still worked great.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fair point! In the end, I will always go with the numbers, and that has me on the S5 (I think). But if we can keep/improve the numbers AND makes things prettier at the same time, I am all in.

Good example of that is the Dash integrated saddle/seatpost. Once you see how pretty and clean that setup is by getting rid of the saddle rails, it's hard to go back!

Not the best photo, but this gives you an idea:



Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slap an omega on her =)

refthimos wrote:
Fair point! In the end, I will always go with the numbers, and that has me on the S5 (I think). But if we can keep/improve the numbers AND makes things prettier at the same time, I am all in.

Good example of that is the Dash integrated saddle/seatpost. Once you see how pretty and clean that setup is by getting rid of the saddle rails, it's hard to go back!

Not the best photo, but this gives you an idea:




Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:
Slap an omega on her =)

I know, I know. I had the Omegas on my P3 and thought they were great brakes for the TT bike. But IMHO at least, they're not quite there when we are talking at-the-limit braking on technical and demanding descents. Horses for courses!

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, you did get the good paint job. Either way, it's a sick bike.
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
At some point, all aero bikes (both road and TT) will have truly integrated brakes like the Speed Concept and BMC TM01/TMR01. I love my S5 to death, and I have a suspicion that it's a faster frame than my buddy's TMR01, but with standard brakes and exposed brake cable, it just doesn't have the sex appeal of the TMR01.

The Omega adds nearly zero drag... so I can't see the point in futzing with proprietary calipers that are a bitch to work on.

It will probably happen, though...

Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [rruff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
But that's the beauty of hydraulics, you can make them dead-simple to work on. Check out this photo of the old HS-22 brakes that were introduced in the 90's for MTBs. The caliper is basically just a block with a piston. Squeeze the lever, and the piston extends the brake pad into the rim. Perfectly straight, linear braking. Now take that caliper and just rework it into a "block" or "module" that can be integrated into fork and frame applications. Now all you need to do it add some screws to the mounting system that allow you to "position" the block with respect to the rim, and voila! you have your brake adjustment.



Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
Last edited by: refthimos: Nov 8, 13 11:14
Quote Reply
Re: 'Hidden' front brake aero. [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I know that the LBS spends a whole lot of time bleeding and servicing hydraulic brakes. And when the owner got a new bike, he put mechanical discs on it.
Quote Reply