You're splitting hairs on that one, Drea.

The thread is discussing the action of taking PEDs expressly for improving athletic performance...in other words...would you cheat?

It is an issue of ethics. Everyone here seems to agree cheating is ethically wrong. Would you compromise your ethics?

I maintain that everyone has a price for compromise. Those who say NEVER are walking with blinders on at best, foolish at worst.

In this situation, the blinders are rather large since, as I've written already, the list of STers who are likely to have been confronted by this question is exceedingly small...probably running from folks like Monty at the older end...to Sergio and Jordan Rapp at the younger end...and including sometimes posters like Lessing, Larsen, Stadler, etc...for the moment (Now don't any of you folks go reading anything more into that than was written...I don't claim to have a clue whether they have or haven't...those folks are just the ones of us here most likely to have been confronted with the OP's question, if anyone has). We AGer types have the luxury of having most of the potential temptations removed for us by the fact that we don't compete at that level...we don't owe our living to the sport, with all attendant ties. The pressure to perform comes mostly from within for us...in which case...to dope...for performance gain...would fall to vanity... Most of us have no frame of reference to accurately address the question...

"I will not label or judge the athletes that get caught."

Having taken the position I have taken on this thread...I still cannot agree with that statement. I will label them cheaters. I will judge them a cheater. Appropriate penalties applied and paid. I'd expect the same done to me if I were the one.

I'm just not so haughty as to assume that means I'm a better person than, say, Nina Kraft, or Tyler Hamilton, or....



Oh...and on a lighter note...

Those were not soldiers...those were Marines! ;-p

"I'm a girl."

Well, now, THAT explains EVERYTHING!

;-p

You're splitting hairs on that one, Drea.

The thread is discussing the action of taking PEDs expressly for improving athletic performance...in other words...would you cheat?

I honestly do not know. I will never be faced with it at the level of pro athletics. I will never be that good. I do not cheat now. I even yell at drafters. I know that some time in my undergrad I looked at my lab partners lab quiz - I guess I have cheated. I also ran a red light the other morning at 5:30. I waited for ~6 minutes. I think that the sensor in the road might have been broken.

It is an issue of ethics. Everyone here seems to agree cheating is ethically wrong. Would you compromise your ethics?

I was under the impression that Vitus was asking whether or not I think doping is unethical. That is irrelevant. Society deems it to be so at this time, explicitly because doping = cheating = unethical. Therefore, at this point in history, doping is unethical. If doping WERE NOT cheating, would it still be unethical? Society would say not, regardless of what I think.

The action of cheating is absolute. The action of doping is absolute. Ethics are RELATIVE.

Is the ACTION of taking EPO unethical? According to our current society, only if you are using to win at sport. Not if you have kidney failure. Therefore the action of taking EPO is not unethical. It depends entirely on circumstance.

IF taking EPO (one actionable form of doping) were allowed in pro cycling, then it would not be cheating. Then taking EPO would not be unethical.

And yes, I'm certain that I have compromised my own personal ethics before.

How did I get in an ethics debate? I don't belong here...


"I will not label or judge the athletes that get caught."

Having taken the position I have taken on this thread...I still cannot agree with that statement. I will label them cheaters. I will judge them a cheater. Appropriate penalties applied and paid. I'd expect the same done to me if I were the one.

In my opinion, they doped, and cheated. They engaged in a behavior that is cheating. I will concede that. I will not label them cheaters. I will not label them unethical.

Even though it is human nature to be judgmental, I feel silly passing judgement on a bunch of dudes in spandex that I see on TV, and whether or not they popped a couple of pills to go a bit faster Edit - especially if they were told to do so.

Knowing what I know - that there is a LOT of doping in cycling, and being a fairly logical person, I would suspect that a portion of the peleton has/do take PEDs. Knowing this, if I were to judge the peleton as a bunch of cheaters who I think are unethical, I don't know that I would watch the race.

Instead, I enjoy the event, even though I academically know that many of them have done whatever it takes to get there. And, I guess I ulimately feel bad for the ones that get caught, knowing that so many did not - EDIT As I DO think that they are told to do it, I feel bad that they had to make the choice. Rather than feeling bad for the ones that did/do not dope, I just think that they are all the more amazing.

I'm just not so haughty as to assume that means I'm a better person than, say, Nina Kraft, or Tyler Hamilton, or....

That is good. I would not assume that I am any better than them either. Nor would I assume that I would have made "better/more ethical" choices if I had been in their place. I never have been. Never will be (I'm pretty sure that I will never be a participant in the TDF).

As you have suggested, a good way to screw up is to say "NEVER" or "ALWAYS" when it comes to what you would or would not do.

Let me rephrase the question slightly (not answering to you Drea...you were the last to post):

Assume you have no education, are not super smart, but have a real talent for [insert favorite sport here] in which most people dope, would you dope to have your go at it?

Because this is the situation that the vast majority of athletes face (I'm not talking about the fake degrees in communication that some athletes get over here).

I will replay anyway, because I'm doing a lot of that these days.

I just wanted to say that you make a very good point. Not all of our thoroughbreds are PhD material. Possible, but rare.

If I was a different person than I am now, it is possible that I would dope. Yes.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I know you're making a smartass comment, however, it's fairly easy to say 'I would never do that'...initially you answered...but the initial point was that 'if it could make you a tour winner' and that already assumes you're a different person. No one on this forum is a potential tour winner. with our without drugs.

It is very interesting reading the posts and how the argument has turned. I didn't ask about ethics or the morality of drug taking, I just wanted to know if people would.

I will not judge Tyler or Millar et al who have been done for doping because I can admit that if I were in the same situation I would have done the same thing. Does this mean that I think they should not be punished, no of course not, they broke the rules and have to accept the consequences.

If I were a pro athlete who had chosen not to dope then I could get judgemental but until that happens (slightly unlikely I feel) then I will try to understand rather than judge.

It wasn't a smartass comment. I am responding to the original poster's question, would I dope? The answer is no.

If I were to turn the clock back to where I was 10 years old, and was presented with different influences and choices along the way, then I might have considered doping to be an acceptable means to an end. That also means that I would be a different person than I am now. Not necessarily any better or worse, just different.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

At the end of the day, I have to live with myself. If I were to gain a whole lot of money and fame by cheating, the money and fame would be a constant reminder that I'd sold out and potentially put my health at risk in the process.

I'm not saying I've never taken a PED or never would. I am saying that before doing so, I'd carefully read the rules (and possibly contact the rules committee for clarification) to make sure it wasn't against the rules, and I'd consult with my doctor to ensure I wasn't endangering my health.

In the previous paragraph, I admitted to using PEDs, so I'd better explain: In the world of elite orchestral musicians, it is extremely common to use Inderol (a beta blocker) to mask the physical effects of stage fright. When I was having serious stage fright issues in college, one of my professors suggested I try it. My doctor wrote me a prescription and I took my pill before each performance. However, there is no rule in the music world prohibiting PEDs, so it's not cheating.

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"Real winners aren't content with yesterday's victories"

That's pretty funny, talking about rules against drugs in the music world ;)

Was watching a documentary last night, they talked a bit about the Rolling Stones. Drugs have definitely prolonged his life, he is already mummified.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly