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Re: I never eat when I train [mermlundry] [ In reply to ]
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I do that in the bike but I am a such a slow cyclist I am not worried about it

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: I never eat when I train [mermlundry] [ In reply to ]
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How do you know your race day nutrition is going to work out? Is your gut going to shut down and not be able to process calories? Or not be able to absorb fluid because it cannot do fluid and calories at the same time.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Last edited by: spockman: May 15, 24 4:51
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Re: I never eat when I train [mermlundry] [ In reply to ]
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Caveat on all of this is I'm training with the following priorities in this specific order:
  1. Increase fitness and performance for races
  2. Overall health
  3. Weight management
If I had different goals or a different order of priorities, this might change what I do. But with that in mind, I consume calories for any training session over an hour, and often even for the 1 hour sessions. Most of the time in the form of sugar, sodium citrate, and some gatorade powder for flavor (per speed nectar recommendations from Dr. Harrison and Saturday app)

It was an absolute game changer for me once I started doing that for many reasons:

  1. Felt stronger intra workout. The longer the session, the more pronounced this effect was. I could push harder, longer and feel better while doing it. For easier stuff that I could complete without calories, I would still feel stronger further in their workout. This was the biggest short term effect. I also figure if I am taking the time to wake up early to train and put in the effort to train, I want to do whatever I can to maximize those investments of time and effort.
  2. Recovered much faster. This was a long term effect, but I found I could do more volume and quality day after day vs feeling beat up and tired and exhausted. Getting sufficient calories during the workout felt like it jumpstarted or lowered the need during the recovery process.
  3. Easier to lose/maintain weight. This seemed so backwards to me, but I stand by it. I do 90% of my training early in the morning. Primary goal of training was to increase fitness, but if I could lose some weight or get more lean as an added benefit, then great! So I would do most of those sessions fasted to help lose weight. However, I would be STARVING the rest of the day after a long hard workout which would lead to me overeating and justifying it as "recovering". And if I kept calories in check, I'd have consistent hunger throughout the day and having to constantly fight the urge to eat wasn't an enjoyable way to go about life to me. When I began properly fueling workouts, my hunger actually returned to somewhat normal levels. I could eat a normal meal and be satisfied until the next meal. I dropped weight much easier and maintain it much easier when I consume calories DURING my training sessions vs trying to use those sessions as the means for cutting/maintaining.

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Re: I never eat when I train [TexasTacos] [ In reply to ]
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Just wanted to echo all of this! I've had a very similar experience, from being able to perform better during the workouts, to recovering faster, and leaning out since I now don't feel ravenous all day.

Oh and my wallet is happier because Speed Nectar is one of the cheapest options out there!
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Re: I never eat when I train [pain_olympics] [ In reply to ]
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Same here. The biggest discovery for me is that I don’t have to have a giant meal after a workout. Which matters especially in the evening.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: I never eat when I train [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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I've been doing VO2 max and lactate lab testing this year. Through this testing, I learned that I'm burning about 120g carb per hour on easy runs and and 145g per hour on easy rides. This data taught me that I was underfueling literally every workout last year. Now I make a point to replenish 100% of the carbs I burn for every workout unless I'm not training the next day.

Yes, this means I take over 400g carb for a 3h easy bike.

Results so far (about 3.5 months in):
1. Body is getting better at burning fat so I'm getting leaner
2. VO2 max has gone up by 3-5 points in each discipline
3. Gained 40 watts in Z1 bike in a little over 2 months
4. Never too tired for a session and I'm always able to complete sessions 100%

I thought folks might find the data points interesting, YMMV
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Re: I never eat when I train [latethannever] [ In reply to ]
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latethannever wrote:
I've been doing VO2 max and lactate lab testing this year. Through this testing, I learned that I'm burning about 120g carb per hour on easy runs and and 145g per hour on easy rides. This data taught me that I was underfueling literally every workout last year. Now I make a point to replenish 100% of the carbs I burn for every workout unless I'm not training the next day.

Yes, this means I take over 400g carb for a 3h easy bike.

Results so far (about 3.5 months in):
1. Body is getting better at burning fat so I'm getting leaner
2. VO2 max has gone up by 3-5 points in each discipline
3. Gained 40 watts in Z1 bike in a little over 2 months
4. Never too tired for a session and I'm always able to complete sessions 100%

I thought folks might find the data points interesting, YMMV


Interesting indeed! That is very high carb consumption in training, and very good improvements.
Can you tell us a bit about your training history? How many years of training and how many hours per year did you train the last 3 years?
Did you only change nutrition to get the benefits 1-4 above in 3.5 months or did you also change your training?
What do you weigh and what is your pace on easy runs and power on easy bike rides?

Thanks!
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Re: I never eat when I train [Sindre] [ In reply to ]
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Sindre wrote:
latethannever wrote:
I've been doing VO2 max and lactate lab testing this year. Through this testing, I learned that I'm burning about 120g carb per hour on easy runs and and 145g per hour on easy rides. This data taught me that I was underfueling literally every workout last year. Now I make a point to replenish 100% of the carbs I burn for every workout unless I'm not training the next day.

Yes, this means I take over 400g carb for a 3h easy bike.

Results so far (about 3.5 months in):
1. Body is getting better at burning fat so I'm getting leaner
2. VO2 max has gone up by 3-5 points in each discipline
3. Gained 40 watts in Z1 bike in a little over 2 months
4. Never too tired for a session and I'm always able to complete sessions 100%

I thought folks might find the data points interesting, YMMV



Interesting indeed! That is very high carb consumption in training, and very good improvements.
Can you tell us a bit about your training history? How many years of training and how many hours per year did you train the last 3 years?
Did you only change nutrition to get the benefits 1-4 above in 3.5 months or did you also change your training?
What do you weigh and what is your pace on easy runs and power on easy bike rides?

Thanks!


Training regularly since 2022, up to 5-6 days/week since Oct 2022 aside from injuries/illness. Probably 7-10 hours/week since then.

Main changes aside from nutrition:
1. Slower sessions - went from mostly Z2 to mostly Z1
2. Lower volume to build over time instead of peaking volume early in season (started at ~5 h/week but ~10 now)
3. Added strength training 2x/week (stopping for now as volume increases)

180 cm, 77 kg
Z1 run: up to 6'/km Z2 run: up to 4:34'/km
Z1 bike: up to 185 W Z2 bike: up to 225 W

Happy to provide any other detail that interests you :)
Last edited by: latethannever: May 16, 24 7:08
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Re: I never eat when I train [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
emceemanners wrote:
as it's an ergogenic aid. The purpose of training is to stimulate adaptation, not maximise watts. For elites and many others, fuelling in submaximal training is simply part of a strategy to limit the energy deficit stress of the session. And nobody should be doing 'maximal' training.

Sure, there are theories about the various strategies. I'm of the mind that higher quality quality training is better than lower quality training . And avoid intentionally depriving myself of something, e.g. to "train your body to burn fat more efficiently", etc. . I could be proven wrong, not up to date on all the evidence.

I have the same thoughts about fueling during training.
If it takes fuel to make me have better quality sessions I'm going to do it.
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Re: I never eat when I train [latethannever] [ In reply to ]
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It goes both ways - you burn what you eat, like sodium content in sweat. It’s better to fuel most of the time for many reasons, but it’s not the black and white arithmetic that maltodextrin salesmen would have you think. Stirring the pot, but you don’t even need carbohydrate to resynthesise muscle glycogen.
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