Swim, bike... walk?

Mar 21, 24 21:32

Post #1 of 19 (1651 views)

A little background.
I've only been into tri for just about three years now. I had hoped to finish my first tri before I turned 50. First was to be Rage in Las Vegas, April of 2020. Then the covid hit. That put me back to October of 2021, Las Vegas Triathlon. Since then I've completed just over a dozen from Miami to Santa Barbara.

A little more background.
Back in the early 90s I was in the military. I got into running quite a bit then. I was never fast, but I had good endurance. I could hold a ~8min/mile pace for 15-20 miles. I never attempted a marathon although I don't believe I would have had any difficulty completing one at that point in my life.

After I got out of the military, I won't say I ever got in really bad shape, but I certainly did not maintain the level of fitness I had while in. I got serious about getting fit again in the mid twenty teens, starting off with running local 5K and 10Ks.

But despite only putting on about 6-8 pounds since my military days, my run times have taken a significant hit. I now struggle just to break a 10min/mile on a stand-alone run. In a sprint tri, I consider myself lucky to average a sub 12min/mile. Anything over a sprint and the best I can hope for is something in the 15 minute neighborhood. That's really only a little better than a brisk walking pace. :(

The reason this is all relevant is I want to complete IMAZ, hopefully this year. By my calculation, if I can maintain a 15min/mile, that's still going to require just about 6.5 hours for the "run" segment. Now, on the swim and bike, I am a middle-of-the-pack competitor on my best day. My hope is to be out of T2 by 5:30, giving me 7.5 hours to finish. But that's an if-everything-goes-to-plan, and as the saying goes, no battle plan survives the first shot. Really not a lot of margin for error.

I've tried to diagnose what went wrong with my run over the years and the only thing I can identify is I have no "spring" in my step. Literally. When I run, when my foot hits, it's like mush. Almost like running in sand. I have even reviewed pictures from previous runs and hardly ever see a foot more than just a couple inches off the ground.

So I'm working on the endurance. I already have a strategy in place for the run to "run" (jog) about four miles, then walk one, jog four, walk one.... But I would really like to figure out a way to get some of that spring back in my step. I do a mix of distance and shorter runs between 4 and 6 miles, and occasionally do wind sprints. But I would appreciate any suggestions on improving that run technique.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 21, 24 22:05

Post #2 of 19 (1632 views)

Be careful to avoid injury, but you might try working on learning to run fast. Many triathletes I used to train with only ever ran endurance/tempo, and you could tell from the way they ran that it looked like they always put on the brakes. Try going to a track once a week for a few weeks and do 4-6 200m sprints with full rest in between. You can set it up so you do these, then pair it with some easy running after. Similarly, once a week after you finish your run, do 4 strides, where you start off easy and over the course of 10 seconds or so, build to a full sprint. Again, take full rest between these, 60-90 seconds at least.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 4:06

Post #3 of 19 (1467 views)

If you're going to run walk it, you're running and walking intervals are way too long.

Here's Jeff Galloways guide pace and time guide to run walking a marathon.

Run Walk Run ratio should correspond to the pace used (Runners).
8 min/mi—run 4 min/walk 30 seconds
9 min/mi— 2 min run/walk 30 seconds
10 min/mi—-1:30/30
11 min/mi—1:00/30
12 min/mi—-1:00/30 or 40/20
13 min/mi—-30/30
14 min/mi—30/30 or 30/20
15 min/mi—15/30
16 min/mi—10/30

He's got thousands of data points that show its best to limit walking to no more than 30 seconds and build the run intervals around a time that works with your target pace.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 4:37

Post #4 of 19 (1446 views)

Many years ago I "completed" my first half Ironman having never run more than 3 miles at one time in my life and that was probably a decade earlier. I was signed up as the swimmer on a relay team (strong swim background). Tuesday before the race our runner had to withdraw. The next day, our cyclist used that as an opportunity to withdraw as well (he hadn't been training). I knew I could compete the swim/bike without any issues but the run was a great unknown. I set my watch to beep at me if my heart rate got above 140 and then walked until it got under control. Ended up "stumbling" into roughly a 3-4 min run/walk method with 30-60 sec walk breaks. Finished it up in 7:15.

It was slow, but led to ultimately completing countless sprints, Olympics, halfs (PR of 5 flat) and 9 Ironmans.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

theyellowcarguy

Mar 22, 24 5:21

Post #5 of 19 (1394 views)

How fast can you walk? How fast is your bike? Completely walking an Ironman run should be feasible with a decent bike. I looked into it last year when I got an injury to my hip. For reference, I found out I could walk quite a long distance at 14min/mile which is pretty solid. It fatigued me no where near as much as running even a 12min/mile pace.

I ended up training with a 5min run 5 min walk scenario. It worked excellent in training and then the day of the Ironman I decided yolo and just went for it. Ran the complete half marathon and ran 10 walked 2min the second half. It’s amazing what the body can do what you get to your goal event and have the crowds and the eyes on the prize.

I’d recommend training with a run walk scenario, which means some very very long training days close to the end because of the speed. Plan how you want to do it on the day. And execute. It totally can be done. Most people plan to run and end up walking most of the marathon anyways.

My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 9:15

Post #6 of 19 (1279 views)

The longer you go, the slower you go. Why not instead focus on speed, which means dropping down to sprint distance. 100-200m. In your 8min mile 15 mile era, did you ever do speed work? People as they get older wonder why they are getting slower, many because they simply practiced running slow and not fast. In addition the weight, that's an easy fix if you have the mental fortitude. So IMHO in stead skip the walkerman, and work on getting fast, even if short distance

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [Lurker4] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 9:28

Post #7 of 19 (1267 views)

Lurker4 wrote:

If you're going to run walk it, you're running and walking intervals are way too long.

Here's Jeff Galloways guide pace and time guide to run walking a marathon.

Run Walk Run ratio should correspond to the pace used (Runners).
8 min/mi—run 4 min/walk 30 seconds
9 min/mi— 2 min run/walk 30 seconds
10 min/mi—-1:30/30
11 min/mi—1:00/30
12 min/mi—-1:00/30 or 40/20
13 min/mi—-30/30
14 min/mi—30/30 or 30/20
15 min/mi—15/30
16 min/mi—10/30

He's got thousands of data points that show its best to limit walking to no more than 30 seconds and build the run intervals around a time that works with your target pace.

I've heard of this person but never researched the strategy.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [theyellowcarguy] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 9:33

Post #8 of 19 (1263 views)

theyellowcarguy wrote:

How fast can you walk? How fast is your bike? Completely walking an Ironman run should be feasible with a decent bike. I looked into it last year when I got an injury to my hip. For reference, I found out I could walk quite a long distance at 14min/mile which is pretty solid. It fatigued me no where near as much as running even a 12min/mile pace.

I ended up training with a 5min run 5 min walk scenario. It worked excellent in training and then the day of the Ironman I decided yolo and just went for it. Ran the complete half marathon and ran 10 walked 2min the second half. It’s amazing what the body can do what you get to your goal event and have the crowds and the eyes on the prize.

I’d recommend training with a run walk scenario, which means some very very long training days close to the end because of the speed. Plan how you want to do it on the day. And execute. It totally can be done. Most people plan to run and end up walking most of the marathon anyways.

On reasonably flat ground, I can hold a 17-18mph overall pace. But I've never ridden that distance. Most I've ridden so far was a 70.3 back in December. I forget exactly, but I think I was just under 17mph average. I was actually just over 17 for the majority, but the last 5-6 miles were all up a slight grade that slowed me down and dropped my average below 17.

According to my strategy, if I can maintain at least a 16.5mph average and I have a swim that's in line with my normal pace, that should put me in T2 between 5:00 and 5:30.

But for me nutrition and hydration are really going to be the key to finishing. I'm planning on stopping 2-3 times during the ride and just take a few minutes to drink water and eat a banana/gel.

I'm going to experiment with some run/walk strategies but the reason I planned what I posted earlier is I just intended to run several miles, then walk for a mile while I hydrated and refueled.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 9:38

Post #9 of 19 (1255 views)

synthetic wrote:

The longer you go, the slower you go. Why not instead focus on speed, which means dropping down to sprint distance. 100-200m. In your 8min mile 15 mile era, did you ever do speed work? People as they get older wonder why they are getting slower, many because they simply practiced running slow and not fast. In addition the weight, that's an easy fix if you have the mental fortitude. So IMHO in stead skip the walkerman, and work on getting fast, even if short distance

Ya, like I said, I do occasionally do some wind sprints. That's one full day workout for me. I generally run 20-25 100m sprints. And that kills my legs for the rest of the day.

I also do "sprint" 5k training runs where I run at the fastest pace I can maintain for that distance. Sadly now, that's still right around a 9min/mile pace.

I know I need to lose the weight. The irony of all this is I started doing all this work as an excuse to justify my calorie intake. I stepped up my level of fitness but haven't cut down on the calories. :(

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 10:05

Post #10 of 19 (1233 views)

Perhaps instead of so many sprints, do as many as you can in under a certain time. If you do 5 in under 20s and 6th is 21, end the workout.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 10:07

Post #11 of 19 (1226 views)

synthetic wrote:

Perhaps instead of so many sprints, do as many as you can in under a certain time. If you do 5 in under 20s and 6th is 21, end the workout.

Hmmm. May not be a bad idea. I'll give it a try.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 10:11

Post #12 of 19 (1213 views)

VegasJen wrote:

A little background.
I've only been into tri for just about three years now. I had hoped to finish my first tri before I turned 50. First was to be Rage in Las Vegas, April of 2020. Then the covid hit. That put me back to October of 2021, Las Vegas Triathlon. Since then I've completed just over a dozen from Miami to Santa Barbara.

A little more background.
Back in the early 90s I was in the military. I got into running quite a bit then. I was never fast, but I had good endurance. I could hold a ~8min/mile pace for 15-20 miles. I never attempted a marathon although I don't believe I would have had any difficulty completing one at that point in my life.

After I got out of the military, I won't say I ever got in really bad shape, but I certainly did not maintain the level of fitness I had while in. I got serious about getting fit again in the mid twenty teens, starting off with running local 5K and 10Ks.

But despite only putting on about 6-8 pounds since my military days, my run times have taken a significant hit. I now struggle just to break a 10min/mile on a stand-alone run. In a sprint tri, I consider myself lucky to average a sub 12min/mile. Anything over a sprint and the best I can hope for is something in the 15 minute neighborhood. That's really only a little better than a brisk walking pace. :(

The reason this is all relevant is I want to complete IMAZ, hopefully this year. By my calculation, if I can maintain a 15min/mile, that's still going to require just about 6.5 hours for the "run" segment. Now, on the swim and bike, I am a middle-of-the-pack competitor on my best day. My hope is to be out of T2 by 5:30, giving me 7.5 hours to finish. But that's an if-everything-goes-to-plan, and as the saying goes, no battle plan survives the first shot. Really not a lot of margin for error.

I've tried to diagnose what went wrong with my run over the years and the only thing I can identify is I have no "spring" in my step. Literally. When I run, when my foot hits, it's like mush. Almost like running in sand. I have even reviewed pictures from previous runs and hardly ever see a foot more than just a couple inches off the ground.

So I'm working on the endurance. I already have a strategy in place for the run to "run" (jog) about four miles, then walk one, jog four, walk one.... But I would really like to figure out: a way to get some of that spring back in my step. I do a mix of distance and shorter runs between 4 and 6 miles, and occasionally do wind sprints. But I would appreciate any suggestions on improving that run technique.

All due respect/affection...
Double check your numbers re: leaving T2 above.

Assuming a 1 hour swim with transiton, and a 4:30 bike with transition; you'll be the top age grouper, male or female. It'll take a while for 2nd place in your AG to catch you given a decent walking pace.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 10:39

Post #13 of 19 (1186 views)

Guess I'm not being clear. The time I posted is actual time on the clock, as in AM/PM. Not elapsed time. Figure the swim starts at 7am, but my wave probably won't get in the water until 7:20 to 7:30. I'm counting on being out of T1 and on the bike by 9am. That gives me right at 8 hours to complete the ride. Puts me in T2 around 5:00-5:30. That's what I mean when I say out of T2 by 5:30. I mean 5:30PM, not elapsed time. Hell, I couldn't even do a 70.3 swim/bike in that time. OK, I could do a 70.3 in that time, but not much better. I think when I did Indian Wells, I was in T2 right at 5 hours elapsed time.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 10:49

Post #14 of 19 (1167 views)

Practically speaking, few IM competitors actually run the run. I guess it all depends on your definition of what an acceptable running pace is. But I’d be willing to bet that most IM athletes pretty much walk significant portions of the run and easily finish under the cutoff. In my one and only iron-distance, I kind of ran the first half of the marathon (just over an 11:00 per mile pace) then my calves locked up. I walked the second half and finished with over two hours on the clock after losing an hour due to a mechanical on the bike.

It won’t be fun. Walking that far is miserable. But it’s quite doable. And you will probably have lots of company.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [Robert Preston] [ In reply to ]

Mar 22, 24 12:55

Post #15 of 19 (1110 views)

Thank you! I do appreciate knowing I won't be alone. <lol>

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 23, 24 15:50

Post #16 of 19 (889 views)

Galloway method works.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 24 19:20

Post #17 of 19 (533 views)

I think this is pretty do-able. I think by working on your swim which is 90% technique you should be able to do 1:30 swim no problem
You can dial in your position on the bike and get your average pace up to 18-19mph giving you a 6:30 for the bike. With a longer T1 of 10minutes, your race clock is 8:10. Everyone gets 17 hours so you have a long time to walk/jog the marathon.

As someone said above, there's a lot of "walkers" on the marathon. Hell my open marathon time is 3:33 and my BEST IM marathon is 5 hours. (shit training, i know)

The other thing you might consider is some lower leg strength work. You lose a lot of muscle mass past the age of 30 and I'm noticing it now that I'm approaching 40. I don't have the same spring in my step either, so I'm working with a physio to bring that strength back

Best of luck!

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [VegasJen] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 24 20:04

Post #18 of 19 (511 views)

I have a mate who did a bunch of Ironmans while waiting to get a hip replacement. His hip was twisted and his joint all buggered up but he still did it. Used to swim about 85min,bike 6:30 and then walk the run. I dont know how he did all the training on that hip to be honest.
The one thing is,while you may be walking the run you are still out in the elements for the whole day and that takes some getting used to.Doing anything for 16hrs is hard.

Re: Swim, bike... walk? [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Mar 25, 24 20:16

Post #19 of 19 (502 views)

Oh, no doubt. I've recently changed my focus from a high intensity, <2 hour workout to a more moderate intensity 4-6 hour work out with a few "all day" (more or less) workouts planned leading up to IMAZ.

It's be a whole lot of years but I was (and still am) a Marine so I don't have a lot of quit in me.

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