Same here. I don't feel any difference racing with or without electrolyte. If I drink electrolyte a dat before the race, I can't sleep well. I was wondering about this too.

My feeling is that one can go for 2 or 3 hours without supplementing sodium but the out beyond that it begins to be to be more and more useful.

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

according to the guest on this pod, it matters f' all of nothing...

https://podcasts.apple.com/...7776?i=1000637331751

It really depends on your sweat rate/composition, duration, and intensity. If I don't supplement with salt for long, hot rides, I tend to feel pretty off. If you sweat heavily, and your sweat is very salty, you'll need to supplement more. For a marathon under normal conditions, I'd think I'd want to take a little Gatorade or something at an aid station if it was available, but I wouldn't really focus on it unless it's pretty warm out.

Keep in mind, your maurten gels do contain sodium, so saying you don't take in any isn't quite correct.

These conversations are always pretty funny. There's always people at the extremes saying things like that person in the podcast, and I've heard Dan Plews say the same thing about supplementing sodium.

IMHO like many other things, it's pretty individual and you need to figure out what works for you. I can go about 2 hours without having issues, but after that my energy level drops, regardless of how much I eat. Hot days are significantly worse for me.

I've done two different sweat tests: PH and Levelen, and both say basically the same thing; I lose around 1800mg/hr of sodium at tempo intensity (and I sweat about 1.8-1.8L/hr of sweat on hot days), so I know that for ME it's really important when I will go more than 2 hours.

N = 1

Dropped my nutrient at the beginning of a 56 mile bike leg after a 1.2 mile swim

Nothing to drink and no nutrition for the 56 miles

Power numbers were exactly what I had hoped/expected.

Next race I had full nutrition and water

Same 1.2 mile swim and 56 mile bike

Power numbers once again were once again what I hoped/expected.

So I don’t really know how much it matters

I mean not eating food before training runs/races is kind of wild. The electrolyte thing matters based on how much volume/intensity you're doing & if you're a heavy sweater or not. You're going to lose electrolytes & burn through carbohydrates during activity so you want to come into activity at a good place & try to manage whatever losses you have (more important during races/hard sessions). Pro marathoners and triathletes are dialed into their nutrition so that they can maximize performance.

I don't think kids need a gatorade or soda because they ran around at recess. Very few people need to be consuming those things in the quantities they're consumed at. But you always see the Norwegians drinking coke in their YouTube videos because they need the sugar. They've been out on a 4hr ride in the heat. Moderation is best for most people. If you're training hard then you probably should consume stuff like this in training. If general fitness is your goal, you probably don't need to rely on it.

Sweat rate and sodium concentration are highly individual. Anyone trying to make some blanket statement about everyone is just and idiot.

I haven't done a sweat test, so I don't my sodium concentration, however my sweat is definatly salty. I do track fluid loss... And, like you I sweat a metric ton... Even in cold weather.

Generally it's 4.5 lbs / hour. I guess that's 2.25 L/hr or so?

I do replace sodium. I use Dr. Harrison's Saturday app for calculating that.

It makes a significant difference in late run performance, and post-run recovery for me, the longer the run the bigger the difference. Until this year's I have always been a no fluids type except on the longest and hottest days. For me the difference is night and day.

Plain, flavored water isn't the same.

It depends seems like the obvious answer here. You can't compare needs across different race distances IMO.

If I go fully loaded into a marathon, I don't worry too much about salt (assuming it's not crazy hot/humid) and focus on getting around 50 carbs an hour. I find I don't need more for a sub 3-hour effort.

For an Ironman, it's a different equation and I find that hitting the salt on the bike and run is the difference between a strong and subpar run.

Holy goodness

I thought I sweat a lot!

I did a 3 hour race 82 degrees no fluids (NOT intentionally). Dropped nutrition/fluids and screw up by race personnel no fluids on course

For your that would have been 13 lbs

I feel for you

How long does an Ironman take you and how much ounces of fluids do you need to take in

I don't do 140.6 races. Longest tri I do is Olympic. And I haven't done one of those since 2018? I'm a 2:20 oly type.

Generally, I superhydrate before the start, and leave the dock with a belly full. Half a bottle while in T1. 1 20oz bottle on the bike, finish other half of bottle in T2. I usually finish a race like that 2.5 lbs down from when I wake up.

I once finished a 6 hour event, 25 years ago, over 10 lbs down from race start. It's Long story involving gastric upset, diarhea, and incompatible on-course fluids. I learned a lesson about knowing the race sponsor before hand that year. That was pretty miserable. I learned to carry concentrate and mix with water on course for races where I can't carry enough premixed.

The logistics is a bit annoying. That is part of the reason I don't do longer events anymore. That said, I I give this ultra-running series a go... I'll have to figure some things out.

Sounds like a good plan

I like the Saturday app as well


Best of luck

That 'guy' is a researcher with no skin in the game, not trying to sell products. She works at the Army's Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, studying ways to improve performance for soldiers in extreme environments. She hasn't found a need for electrolyte supplementation in some of the harshest environments. If that makes her position extreme, so be it.

Cool. I won’t stop talking the sodium I take either way. I have enough proof for myself that not supplementing sodium hinders my performance in events longer than 2 hours.

I am I the M45-49 AG. I did my first marathon in my 20’s. I bonked due to a faulty nutrition plan. You have to get your nutrition right when you do any endurance race over about 2-1/2 hour long. You don’t need to worry too much about nutrition for training or races that are under 2-1/2 hours long. For training runs I don’t have to take anything if I am going less than 16 miles. The Gels replace your glycogen. I start to feel a drain in my muscles that is similar to when a limb falls asleep about ten minutes before I bonk on a training run or in a race. When I get that feeling I can take calories/carbs and sometimes overt the bonk. Electrolytes do something different for you. They help keep you from getting muscle cramps. I likewise can go 16 miles with no electrolytes. On cool days I can go a lot longer without electrolytes. Hot days I can’t. Bonking for lack of carbs will ruin your race but is not painful. Having a quad or calf lock up is very painful and will also ruin you race. I can probably get through a marathon with no electrolytes. I can’t get through a marathon without cards. Going without electrolytes doesn’t improve my marathon times. I took 17 minutes off my faster marathon that I ran in my 20’s when I did my fist marathon in more that a dozen years as a masters athlete. The difference for me was that I nailed my nutrition. It took my two years of failed marathons a and three years of failed 70.3’s to figure out my nutrition plan for races over 2-1/2 hours long. Once I got it right I stated crushing PR’s from my teen’s and 20’s that I thought I would never break.

I thought this notion was "debunked" so to speak? You're not losing salt in your sweat which needs to be replaced; you're body is excreting sodium to maintain proper balance/concentration of sodium in your plasma volume. So basically you have too much sodium and not enough fluids so your body is trying to re-establish equilibrium.

I could be wrong there but that was my last recollection of the "salty sweater myth."


And for this thread: paging Dr. Alex Harrison...Dr. Alex Harrison to the tri floor please. I feel like he could shed some light on this.

Its almost as if there are in fact people who can perform without supplemental electrolytes (especially on a western diet and in sub 3 hour events)...but they are the exceptions and not the rule. Perhaps.

That would imply you're not replacing fluids though. I'm a fairly heavy sweater and if I'm not replacing fluids I'll be in trouble pretty quickly on a moderately warm day. If there's no electrolyte in what I'm drinking, after a couple hours I'm going to be in trouble.

Not sure what you mean by debunked though. Fairly certain it's been shown that there are differences in sweat's salt content between people, if what you say is true I'd think that most everyone would have the same sweat salt content

Thats exactly what it implies. You're either not replacing enough fluids or enough fluids quickly enough. I know the majority of endurance athletes we work with don't drink nearly enough fluids to compensate for the volume of sweat loss and internal heat. So they may take a handheld or two for long humid summer runs and then have that salty sweat. But thats just because they havent replenished enough fluids.

I used to take lots of salt stick pills with on course GE and not enough fluids. You can see the salt lines in my finish photos. Fast forward to the past two years where I did the sweat testing and tweaked fluid intake and I feel much better and don't have the same sweat outcome. And the changes I made were lots more sodium and even more water. This year was the first IM I didn't end up in the med tent....and it wasn't bc I'm in better shape lol. Quite the opposite.

Maybe I'll mess around with some more of my sweat tests/patches on indoor rides. I'll keep electrolyte intake the same but use the fluid intake as the variable to see if it changes sodium content in the sweat.

If what I'm remembering is true then people won't have the same salt content in sweat because the amount of fluids and electrolytes they take in would alter that. For my earlier racing: tons of sodium in my diet, lots of electrolyte intake during races, and insufficient fluid intake --> super salty sweat.

Alex Harrison did a solid series on this: https://www.youtube.com/...yProFuelAndHydration

Fair enough. I also thought that you were at first arguing that no sodium supplementation is necessary, all that's needed is water. Based off your last post it seems that's not the case.

All I was really trying to say is that there isn't necessarily a one size fits all approach, and it's important to experiment to find what works best for you. While there are some good rules of thumb, I do know people who need more sodium and some who can get by with almost none, which is why I beleve some experimentation is good.

Did you run the same? Did you recover the same?