I hope so. But it looks uphill to me. The first ELEMNT Bolt was fantastic, but since then they've (IMO) fallen just short of Garmin (and now maybe Karoo) in head units. And the Rival watch wasn't...good. The smart trainer / smart bike market is now commodified, and probably flat at best, maybe shrinking a bit. People expect a good smart trainer for $600 now. I'm a Sufferfest-then-SUF-then-SYSTM-then-X subscriber, but it's in sort of an uncomfortable middle ground of being a good package value, but neither as good as Zwift at virtual worlds nor as good as TrainerRoad at non-virtual-world training. IMO.

I'll be happy if they just stop renaming Sufferfest every year. But honestly one more might be in order now that "X" can easily be confused with another online service. :)

Yeah same here....they need a new and much better Bolt that either meets Garmin or at least is priced in a manner where it's somewhat competitive. DCR says they should just stop making the Rival, yet if they do that then they have a huge hole in their lineup. I am very interested and hope they are successful because their products used to be so, so good.

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"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

They should buy FSA.

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

What's VC?

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Venture Capital

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I want them to do well. As for another poster, I'm a veteran - since Sufferfest was downloaded mp4 episodes. I think that there are some sharp, creative folks there. Can they get their mojo back? I dunno. They have aimed for the mainstream and that puts them in competition with folks with deeper pockets / bigger teams (Zwift, Garmin, Trainerroad vs. RGX, Wahoo devices, the SYSTM platform, respectively). I just don't see it. I fear that Wahoo will be like Polar - just hanging on, it seems. The Way Out (haha, inside Sufferlandrian joke) might be a successful, unique integration of more than one of those pieces b/c Zwift has limited strength in training platforms, Garmin has limited strength in virtual cycling and Trainerroad has limited strength in hardware and virtual cycling). So, how to make a Wahoo 'killer' environment that leverages virtual cycling worlds (RGX), hardware (Wahoo) and a training platform (SYSTM). That's the only hope, but most of these individual products from various vendors are seamlessly interoperable (pretty much). Sigh. Could SYSTM choose your daily workout based on goals (like Trainerroad) and then allow you to choose the appropriate 'video' (SYSTM) or course (RGX)? It does some of this now, but what about including some RGX races in the training plan? That would be new. is there some integration of Wahoo devices that 'knows' something about RGX or SYSTM workouts that would add value? Again, I dunno. Wahoo has historical strength in the hardware and purchased the other parts. Maybe turn those pieces loose (SYSTM, RGX) and double down on next-gen trainers? Making the GPS watches/bike computers more competitive? Still, I dunno...

I am in the market for a head unit and was considering one of the Wahoo units. However, after just 100 hours, my Kickr Core is failing and can’t do structured workouts anymore. There is no shot I would buy Wahoo after spending that kind of money for a trainer that lasted that short. Not to mention DCR has given them mediocre reviews. I guess their customer service is responsive and helpful, but that’s not really what I like to be doing instead of quickly getting workouts in.

I also am hoping to see a really nice update to the Rival watch. Currently, I use a roam, core, and rival, so I'm "in" in the ecosystem. As to other companies making a better head unit, reading the DCR reviews, I see they have new screen tech and features, but I think I'm one of the few that does not look much beyond the data fields available to the Roam. It does routes great, data pages can be easily adjusted, and I get all the information I need.

I've come to enjoy using the Rival and it works well for me - but I live a multi watch life and only use the sports watch while exercising. I can see those who want a blended smart watch would look elsewhere. Additionally, the rival really should have wifi and routes. I'd like to stay with a single company for my sports widgets so if wahoo drops watches that starts to open the door for me to look else where when I replace items. I get that each person has their own "must have" feature set and the watch that hits that for the most people at the best price wins.

I used my 910xt for 10 years and only stoped because the buttons fell out from too much use. The electronics were fine, just could not get it wet any more at that point.

I would like to see wahoo app improvements - like around statistics (time in zone per week for example), maybe their own workout builder...

Put me as someone who'd really like to see an updated and refined Rival which kept the basic and simple user interface. I'm in the Garmin ecosystem and I cannot stand how many silly widgets and craptastic "features" just get thrown in just to tick some marketing box so the influencer set can talk about it

I think that goes for everything Wahoo might come up with. Make it simple, make it work. There's a market for that

I mostly love the rival. I only use it for workouts and don’t want it to have a bunch of other stuff on it. I do wish it had the option to leave the back light on….it’s so strange to me that it doesn’t have that option.

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Move on. Keep training. Be an adult.

I'm definitely in the Wahoo "Ecosystem." I own the original elemnt from 2016, I have a bolt, a rival, and a kickr Core.

I've never had anything but positive experience with Wahoo. Even their support has stayed top notch during this crazy time for them.

Like others have mentioned, I really like my Rival. But I also only use a watch for exercise/training and have zero interest in any of the day to day "smart" features. So while I'm happy with mine and would buy another without question, I can see how people who want the blended wear all the time watch would be disappointed.

Hopefully they update the software and are prepping a new version of the watch. But I have not seen any indication of that given the lack of updates for the Rival.

Wahoo Fitness to Shut Down RGT Virtual Cycling App
Wahoo Fitness to Shut Down RGT Virtual Cycling App | DC Rainmaker

I just got the email. Wahoo is offering a free 12 month Zwift subscription as compensation for RGT shutting down (as Ray noted in his article).

Seems odd to offer a year subscription to one of your main competitors. 🤷🏼‍♂️

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Wahoo and Zwift just settled a legal dispute centered on trainer technology/patents/pricing. Zwift increased the price of their trainer and bundled it with a year sub. A concession to reduce competition with Wahoo trainers. Now, Wahoo reduces their competition with Zwift in the virtual cycling space. Coincidence? Nah.

And this move is as I predicted just above for Wahoo: "Maybe turn those pieces loose (SYSTM, RGX) and double down on next-gen trainers?" I guess shutting down is sort of like 'turning loose', especially if there are no buyers.

Here is the next piece, also predicted above - how long before Wahoo sells SYSTM, especially now without RGX? There might be a buyer for that as it is likely profitable as a stand-alone (which is hard to imagine the same for stand-alone RGX, hence just shutting down and not selling/no buyers).

Would it make sense for Zwift to buy them out entirely?

Alternatively Zwift could probably Peloton and open up a whole other avenue of subscribers. Peloton’s gamified training is pretty bad and I bet nobody uses it.

Not sure what word was supposed to be after "probably" and before "Peloton", but if it was 'buy', that's definitely not the case. Peloton dwarfs Zwift, just like Zwift drawrfed RGT.

For reference, as of the latest investor letter on Aug 23, 2023, Peloton had 3.1M hardware subscribers ($44/month), and 820K app subscribers ($13/month). That app-only number (820K) is roughly in the ballpark as Zwift. Zwift doesn't release user numbers, but it's widely accepted Zwift is floating around the 700-900K range (in paying subscriptions). Said differently, Peloton is 5x bigger than Zwift on paying subscribers alone, but 80% or so of those Peloton subs are far more expensive ($44/month).

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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

Ouch.....unsurprising but still ouch and DCR says they should get rid of the Rival.......I hope that they make a big comeback.

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"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

They should focus on their hardware and stop attempting to diversify. They wasted a ton of capital developing a watch that will never see a second gen consumer model. Then they pivoted and bought stuff to create a cloud platform workout model with the whole SYSTM nonsense, acquiring companies to fold into it. (They did this pretty well, but zwift being first to market killed that truly). Like, I'm not certain FulGaz will compete longterm with zwift. Zwift just did a lot of things better.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Well, I'm retinking this. How about...Wahoo closes SYSTM, too, in the future. Both RGT and SYSTM (well, The Sufferfest) were Wahoo purcjhases, not developed in-house. It seems reasonable to think that Wahoo had a plan to integrate hardware, training platform (SYSTM) and virtual cycling (RGT). Wahoo got into financial trouble and could never pull that off. So, back to the origins of the businees - close RGT, then spin out or close SYSTM. Then, Zwift buys out - or forms an exclusive partnership with - Wahoo (now a hardware-only company) for Zwift trainers.

We will know something about the inner workings of the Wahoo/Zwift settlement if this happens. I think that SYSTM, alone, is probably profitable and that someone might be interested in buying it. If Wahoo simply closes SYSTM, then they are working to reduce competiton with Zwift...

I was just looking at market cap

Do you think there is value in wahoo making a Rival v2 to keep the ecosystem complete? Something with improved accuracy, refined interface, and competitive price? If my rival died today, I’d go buy a Forerunner. And once I start using Garmin Connect again, I believe that would make it more likely that when I replace my Roam it’s a Garmin.

I think it'd be exceptionally challenging for Wahoo, or frankly any company, to enter - or re-enter the sports/watch space at this point.

While there will always be a section of the space that doesn't care about music, contactless payments, cellular connectivity, pretty screens, on-device 3rd party apps, and more - the reality is, 95% of the market does care about those things - even iron-distance triathletes. And each of those things in that short list is incredibly hard to do (minus pretty screens, that's easy). The barrier to entry to contactless payments is virtually 100% right now, due to the way the banking industry works. The barrier to entry for getting Spotify or one of the other streaming platforms is also 100% right now. Cellular connectivity? Pretty high too.

And that's just the non-sports side of the equation, let alone the massive pile of sports features required. I just don't see how Wahoo can catch back-up, short of a merger with some other watch maker. And even that would be challenging.

Whereas, I think if we look at Suunto/Polar/COROS, they have this wealth of sports features that Wahoo lacks. Everything from navigation/routing to training load/recovery metrics, more advanced features around structured workouts/etc...And each of those categories has dozens of deeper features that the can lean on, to make-up for some of the lack of music/payments/cell/etc type features.

[Edit, forgot to finish my thoughts on the sports side...]

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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

RGT already showing issues with connecting to the servers today (4th october)

My whine of the day to both Wahoo and Zwift: For whatever reason the "Claim" button in my email from Wahoo doesn't work. So I tracked down the right Zwift URL, and pasted in the code from Wahoo. Zwift told me, "Your code was accepted, but you still need to enter payment information. Don't worry, the trial period is on us!"

Of course as soon as I entered my payment information I was instantly charged $14.99. At least it says my upcoming November payment is $0.00, so the code wasn't a total failure.