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MTB suspension notes
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I thought I would put this up here after all of the discussion about various types of suspension set-ups. others should feel free to add, as i am in no means an expert.

in my experience, both dual suspension and hardtails have their place. i've raced both, and have been quite successful on both of them. the main difference between the two is feel. when i was on my dual suspension, it felt sluggish going up hill. it didnt quite have the pop when i'd mash on the pedals. this was a >$2000 bike as well, so it wasn't crappy suspension. however, going downhill, it was much smoother as every little rock didn't throw the rear wheel off line. i couldn't tell if it was faster or not, but i do know that i had to pay less attention when descending as the bike could do most of the work. also, it was comfortable enough to actually be able to pedal through rock gardens and feel balanced.

i switched to a hardtail primarily because it was much quicker climbing, and i felt that the lighter weight bike would more than make up for the discomfort. after rides of 4 hours or so, my back starts to miss the suspension. the weight difference is something that can be felt while riding as well. additionally, the ridgid rear end allows me to know exactly where the rear tire is and what it's doing at all times. i like this quality in a bike. this means that i'm enabled to put the rear wheel right where i want it in technical sections, and i know how it will respond immdiately. in all, i think this is a faster bike than that dual suspension bike because of the weight and "ride feel".

those are my notes, feel free to discuss... ;)
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Re: MTB suspension notes [dirtrunr] [ In reply to ]
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This may be a stupid question but are you standing or seated on fast technical decents?

jaretj
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Re: MTB suspension notes [dirtrunr] [ In reply to ]
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It depends what hardtail you are riding. I ride a steel hardtail with a carbon post and tubeless wheels (2.1-2.25" tires). This feels more efficient, and just as comfortable as a short travel full suspension bike. I feel this is the ultimate XTerra setup.

If you are not already, Id say invest in a lightweight set of tubeless wheels, and enjoy the comfortable and fast ride.

AF
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Re: MTB suspension notes [dirtrunr] [ In reply to ]
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What type of dual suspension did you have? $2000 doesn't mean it's good, just expensive.
I've got a GF 292, full suspension, 29 inch wheels. It climbs as well or better than my hardtail, decends better, and rolls better with the bigger wheels. I could get about the same times on each bike, but the 292 makes it less work and easier on me.
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Re: MTB suspension notes [damn lucky] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
$2000 doesn't mean it's good, just expensive.


I'd have to say that $2,000 is pretty cheap for a "good" full suspension rig. I guess it's all relative, but in general over $4,000 probably gets into the "expensive" XC category, and there are plenty of bikes in the $4,000-$7,000 range.

Regarding what type of frame, it's dependent on the course. Regardless, a properly set up, modern stable-platform or sophisticated rear-end will not exhibit the characteristics that dirtrunr described.

(We're taking bets on how long it takes for the rigid/steel/9-er crowd to chime in ;-)

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Re: MTB suspension notes [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if they still do it, but back in the 90's when guys like miguel martinez were dominating world cup mountain bike racing, they used to have their suspension forks modified so that there was hardly any travel. Like, maybe an inch, tops, and a very firm inch at that.

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Re: MTB suspension notes [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if they still do it, but back in the 90's when guys like miguel martinez were dominating world cup mountain bike racing, they used to have their suspension forks modified so that there was hardly any travel. Like, maybe an inch, tops, and a very firm inch at that.


"Modified"?! That's about all those things would do back in the dark ages of suspension, LOL!

One pro rider, I can't recall his name, races his SID at 63mm... the rest know better ;-)

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Re: MTB suspension notes [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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Mid 90's is the dark ages? Wow I'm getting old.

There was no problem getting lots of travel out of forks then, the downhill guys were running somehting like 6 or 8 inches of travel. the problem was that there was no SPV valving or anything like that, so climbing out of the saddle on a suspension fork wasn't great, and the WC courses were generally pretty smooth and often came down to who was the best climber.

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Re: MTB suspension notes [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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i just got a new bike specifically for racing xterra: 2006 stumpjumper disc. prior to his i had both an FS and HT and was really torn on what to get for xterra. i demo'd the specialized XC FS, EPIC FS, and the Stumpjumper HT. obiviously i chose the HT.

i am really happy with my choice. climbing on it is a breeze, although i have gotten into some gnarly stiuations on a couple fast. rocky descents. I also have been riding completely rigid 90% of the time by locking out my front fork... better for climbing, and it seems to be a way faster on flats that are not technical.

my bike is stock right now.. any advice on upgrades? i am want to go tubeless but am kind of sketched about it. I have never ridden tubeless.

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Re: MTB suspension notes [damn lucky] [ In reply to ]
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I was riding a Trek Fuel 90 (w/ disc, but that doesn't really matter for this discussion). From the other guy's question, descents are always standing. Regardless of if the terrain is smooth or rocky, standing allows you to transfer your weight around more easily.

One other note, tire pressure in the rear also has alot to do w/ the feel of how a hardtail rides, particularly in technical stuff. I usually run my tire pressure about 2 psi lower than the lowest recommended pressure. I haven't ridden a 29'er except around the parking lot, so i can't comment on how that feels. (but i would LOVE steel 29'er singlespeed! )
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Re: MTB suspension notes [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Mid 90's is the dark ages? Wow I'm getting old.

There was no problem getting lots of travel out of forks then, the downhill guys were running somehting like 6 or 8 inches of travel. the problem was that there was no SPV valving or anything like that, so climbing out of the saddle on a suspension fork wasn't great, and the WC courses were generally pretty smooth and often came down to who was the best climber.


You've now added "mid" to 90's... regardless, yes... dark ages. Some history:



1987- Paul Turner, who later founds Rock Shox, shows first suspension bicycle

1989- Turner/Rock Shox makes first bicycle suspension fork for production: RS1

1992- Rock Shox Mag 23 & 30 elastomer w/ 1.5" "travel" if you call it that

1994- Mag 21sl goes to 2.5" elastomer

1999- SID dual air



No XC suspension forks worth their weight existed until the mid-nineties, and downhill forks like you're talking about did not exist until the very late 90's. I think you have your decades mixed up ;-)

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Last edited by: IronDad: Mar 23, 06 8:26
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Re: MTB suspension notes [jdubcx] [ In reply to ]
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i just got a new bike specifically for racing xterra: 2006 stumpjumper disc. prior to his i had both an FS and HT and was really torn on what to get for xterra. i demo'd the specialized XC FS, EPIC FS, and the Stumpjumper HT. obiviously i chose the HT.

i am really happy with my choice. climbing on it is a breeze, although i have gotten into some gnarly stiuations on a couple fast. rocky descents. I also have been riding completely rigid 90% of the time by locking out my front fork... better for climbing, and it seems to be a way faster on flats that are not technical.

my bike is stock right now.. any advice on upgrades? i am want to go tubeless but am kind of sketched about it. I have never ridden tubeless.


I don't know enough about that bike, but I think it has mechanical disc brakes. If you can afford it go with the hydraulic ones like the Avid Juicy's or Magura Marta's. That is if it doesn't have the (crappy) Shimano shift/brake levers ;-)

And a big yes on tubeless, you'll never look back. The feel, reduced rolling resistance and puncture-proofing is wonderful.

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Re: MTB suspension notes [IronDad] [ In reply to ]
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I mentioned Miguel Martinez. What year(s) was he world champ? It was around the same time as that since he was one of the guys who did it, as well as Thomas Friscknect (sp?) after the Ritchey team started using suspension forks instead of the suspension stems. So it may even have been late '90's that I saw the article.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: MTB suspension notes [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I mentioned Miguel Martinez. What year(s) was he world champ? It was around the same time as that since he was one of the guys who did it, as well as Thomas Friscknect (sp?) after the Ritchey team started using suspension forks instead of the suspension stems. So it may even have been late '90's that I saw the article.


Frischknecht: 96

(Rasumssen, yes, the Tour de France one: 99)

Martinez: 2000



Regardless... early nineties, mid-nineties, to some extent late nineties... dark ages as far as suspension is concerned.

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Re: MTB suspension notes [dirtrunr] [ In reply to ]
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I pretty much have the same models to compare between, both a Fuel and an OCLV HT. I gotta say I pretty much agree with Dirtrunr. Basically, if it's anything more than 4 hours, then FS all the way. Climbing and technical, HT. I do find that the FS does track better in the rocks because it doesn't bounce around as much.



As for Jdubcx, disc brakes are a good upgrade. If you work on your own bikes, then go mechanical. If you can afford the ridiculous labor rates and lead times at the local shop in the summer time, then go hydralic. There is a slight difference between the two, but basically both types will slow you down.

No experience with the tubless tires yet.
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Re: MTB suspension notes [afeltz] [ In reply to ]
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I am expecting my 2006 GT idrive 4 1.0 this weekend and am aiming to drop some rotational weight via the route you suggest. Given at I am upgrading from DT Swiss XR 4.1 D, double wall high strength rims, heat treated welded aluminum with eyelets on Shimano XT disc with centerlock rotor with DT Swiss double butted stainless steel spokes and nipples what is a good upgrade wheelwise?

I have decided on Bontrager Mud X UST ready tyres but am unsure if they can be used on standard rims. I believe Jim Vance not only suggested that it can be done but recommended it.

Anyone care to comment?





"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: MTB suspension notes [JulianInEngland] [ In reply to ]
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I cant recommend the Bontrager Tubeless Ready tires enough. Soft compound for great feel and Avg weight is 575g, for a 2.2 tire (Over 100g less than most UST tires). The catch is you have to use the Bontrager Super Juice Sealant, or stans latex. Both work great, but add 50g(you dont need as much as stans recommends).

For wheels, you can get the DT tubless conversion rim strip for the wheels you have (adds 30g/wheel)

Or

Relace the hubs you have to Stans Olympic rims (saves 75g per rim vs DT) and DT revolution spokes (saves 50g/wheel).

Or

The ultimate in lightweight tublesss is DT 240centerlocks, laced to Stans Olympic rim with DT revolution spokes (or Sapim CX Rays if you can afford it).
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Re: MTB suspension notes [Deus ex Machina] [ In reply to ]
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As for Jdubcx, disc brakes are a good upgrade. If you work on your own bikes, then go mechanical. If you can afford the ridiculous labor rates and lead times at the local shop in the summer time, then go hydralic. There is a slight difference between the two, but basically both types will slow you down.

No experience with the tubless tires yet.
More than a slight difference... in weight, feel and modulation. And Marta's are so simple that you won't need a mechanic. Don't know about the juicy's.

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Re: MTB suspension notes [dirtrunr] [ In reply to ]
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about 2 psi lower than the lowest recommended pressure.
Go tubeless and you'll go MUCH lower ;-)

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Re: MTB suspension notes [JulianInEngland] [ In reply to ]
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I have decided on Bontrager Mud X UST ready tyres but am unsure if they can be used on standard rims. I believe Jim Vance not only suggested that it can be done but recommended it.

Anyone care to comment?


You either need tubeless-compatible rims, or something like Stans or Eclipse strips to convert standard rims to tubeless.

You can find out more here: www.notubes.com

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