Yeah, no particular fan of Enve, but don't quite get the hate. Far from the first company to have a dubious - or flat out false - marketing schtick. Zipp has the whole dimple thing, which you'd think if they did anything, their wheels would test faster than others. But they don't test faster, so I've always chalked dimples up to marketing as well. Or at least some benefit so marginal that it pretty much falls inside the ability of a wind tunnel to detect.

I have a Zipp 900 tubular wheel that is around 15 years old or so (it's a narrower rim so fits my 2010 P3 well)...I find it absolutely fun to ride and while I wouldn't know the difference between it and a newer model for comparison (as they wouldn't fit my frame well), I have a hard time imagining that it would be significantly better in real world riding. Most triathletes p*ss away time savings from top notch aero equipment by doing stupid things over the course of a race negating the savings anyhow.

Next time around, I may go the HED route or one of the newer companies out there--depending on price. HED for the money, is pretty decent. You look at who is riding them and even pros winning prize purses would not pass up losing major races for a few sponsor dollars. You have more to gain winning than most pros get from a sponsor these days anyhow. Support in triathlon (bikes, wheels, wetsuits) are dwindling year to year.

If ENVE has a disc, or comes out with one, of course I'd see the consenus online & talking to folks, before narrowing down which disc I'd get when I get my new bike (which may be never as none are in the works or planning stages).

Yeah, I agree with you. Disc for the rear wheel? Yes? Great, move on to the next piece of equipment. No? Get any disc.

Done.

Same. Can someone explain the hate? At first I thought it was because they were very expensive given their performance, but Zipp, Lightweight, et al. seem to escape this hate. Is it because of some of their claims that their wheels are the fastest? Again, pretty much every wheel brand has made similar claims. So is it because of their marketing manager that the 7.8 are faster than a disc? Seems thin to hate on them for that as Reynolds and Paul Lew said the same thing about the RZR 92 (with a pretty comprehensive white paper to back it up). The data that does exist on the 7.8 shows them to be be good wheels, stellar in some instances. That's more than I can saw about the last few Zipp offerings.

I currently own a set of 4.5. I bought them because of two reasons; first is that I could buy the rim only. This allowed me to match the hubs to my English. Second is that I specced my English with an ENVE seat tube and fork, so figured I may as well. Are they the nuts? No, but they're fine. Truth be told I miss my Reynolds Aero 72 as they just *felt* better. Do I now wish I'd have purchased a set of Jet Black 6 instead? Yup, would have been nice to save all that cash. Do I begrudge ENVE for being expensive? No, I had a choice when I bought them and could have opted for a cheaper, and ultimately better for me, option.

I think Lightweight gets a pass because they're considered more "weight-weenie exotica" than aerodynamic? Their Autobahns may be decent, but the years of sharp deep-V rims have eroded expectations.

My observation, however, has been that ENVE wheels have had more failures than any other wheel within my riding circle. Of the 4 wheel delaminations in my team this year, 3 were ENVE - and it's not like they're a common sight here. My partner borked a brake track on her 45 Classic on a pretty mild descent, and she's a lightweight. Last week I cut it up ("proof of destruction" for warranty - now that was fun) and there was a surprising amount of air bubbles and inconsistencies in the carbon. Made me wonder if I'm better off selling that replacement SES 7 wheel and replace it with a HED Black.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

I've had a couple of Autobahns, biggest waste of cash out there IMO.

Interesting about the ENVEs. I can't say I've seen any issues with them, and there are lots of them out here (I've had 3 sets that were all fine). Zipps on the other hand, I've seen countless exploded hubs...

I reckon the money you'll save with a Jet Black or Aeox likely makes the sale of the SES worth it.

This seems to be a common attitude, that HED is a good second alternative for a low price option....

Never really understood it. Yes, they are a bit different in that they use an aluminum rim (better!), but as far as i know there is zero testing to show that they are any slower than any carbon clincher out there, their weight is pretty much on par now with most cc's, high quality - we don't ever hear about HED wheel failures, in the tubular realm pro's have been using de-badged Stinger discs and and HED3's for years. Sanders and Ryf have both laid down some pretty fast times!
All they really lack compared to the others:
- big marketing
- Nonsense gimmicks on their wheels (golf balls, whales, etc).

Agreed. HED has been making really nice wheels for ages. fast, good braking, what's not to like?

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Just look at Bryan's thread above:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._triathlon_P6391715/

They're saying that discs are always slower unless you're going at least 30mph. Yet we know that to be utter bs. In fact as yaw angles go higher, virtually all testing has shown that the advantage of the disc increases.

They refuse to back up these statements with data, but they promise that they have it.

Their position is that triathletes should never use a disc wheel.

This is beyond zipp being expensive and claiming the dimples help them go faster. This is some serious lying to the tri community. I could care less if a manufacturer prices themselves too high. That's their option. But telling pretty major lies is a red line for me.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Thanks for that. Looks to me like Jake the marketing guy is not the brightest when it comes to winning over the data-savvy crowd. Still, seems a bit much to damn the whole company based upon one guy face-planting on community management (although as he is the current mouthpiece for ENVE, I can see why people feel the way they do).

If that's the case, where's Zipp's?
It's one thing to believe one wind tunnel test over another. It's another thing to gather several tests and agree on a trend. It's a completely different thing to not have any data and still think you know anything.

I've never seen a brand not bragging and showing off data when it's true. Especially Zipp.

add to the marketing fiasco with the disc idea, ive read multiple accounts here and elsewhere on the net about weight discrepancies. sorry, but im not going to pay for a product that is nothing but marketing and doesnt even weight what its suppose to.

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80/20 Endurance Ambassador

well I just got some 7.8s.. wont sell my Super9 until a Enve disc comes.. but the front 808 FC will be on the block soon.