Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls

Feb 19, 18 9:42

Post #1 of 21 (4612 views)

I have combed over all of the Trainingpeaks articles on CTL, ATL, TSS, etc. Most of it I get. But ...

My current problem is that my current Form TSB is -35, which means I should be VERY fatigued from this past week's training, yet I am not that fatigued. If -30 is close to overtraining (like Trainingpeaks article states), then I am at -10/-15 based on how I feel.

Furthermore, from the very get-go, my ATP (annual training plan) has been off. I know I can go to 'adjust the parameters', but I have no idea what numbers to put to make it correlate with reality. I've been inserting numbers at random, to correct the Form TSB, but my now my "fatigue ATL" is at 102!

If my "fatigue ATL" is at 102 ... is that bad, good, high, low???

Geez, I wish Trainingpeaks had customer service via phone, that could walk me through. Their articles are helpful, but still have holes in them.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [p3] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 9:47

Post #2 of 21 (4602 views)

TSB is the difference between CTS and ATL

If you have just started with trainingpeaks and your CTL started at zero it would make sense that your TSB is very low.

How far along are you right now?

Last edited by: jaretj: Feb 19, 18 9:47

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [jaretj] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 9:49

Post #3 of 21 (4589 views)

TP has my training from the last 6 years. But, I've only recently used the ATP training plan.

I want to really learn it, but it is not correlating with anywhere close to how I feel.

When I go to adjust the numbers, I'm just choosing them from the air. Was wondering if anyone had thoughts?

Thank you

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [p3] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 10:48

Post #4 of 21 (4543 views)

- are you tracking all 3 sports?
- how, in particular, are you tracking swimming?
- how are you tracking running?

ATL value of about 100 is very normal for composite score across three sports.

The TSB value will "catch up" if you've only just started doing it.

Dr. Coggan dislikes composite values because he doesn't really think that it's just S+B+R, which I agree with. I found a reasonable sweet spot for composite ATL/CTL values, but that was post hoc based on a massive data set. I think it'd be harder to manage going forward.

In general, he suggests - and I agree - keeping the focus on ATL/CTL/TSB in individual sports. That should be more reflective. I.e., you might be tired running but feel great biking.

I wish there was a way to turn off the composite value in the weekly summary. In particular, to eliminate swimming. I found that I had really consistent numbers and could really sense a logical give-and-take between bike and run. But swimming could introduce much more noise - and also made things much less useful.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [p3] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 10:51

Post #5 of 21 (4534 views)

Have you thought about buying a book, or hiring a knowledgeable coach?

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 11:55

Post #6 of 21 (4466 views)

Care to recommend a book?

Also, it's more a question that ceneters on Trainingpeaks. I mean, I know what the terms mean, it's more of understanding how to do it in TP.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [p3] [ In reply to ]

Kent_NewZealand

Feb 19, 18 12:05

Post #7 of 21 (4442 views)

The webinars are great. I have also found their customer care great. But it seems your questions are more training related than software related. You could be manually calculating these with pen and paper and your question would be the same.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [p3] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 12:12

Post #8 of 21 (4429 views)

p3 wrote:

Care to recommend a book?

TARWPM, 3rd edition?

Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Feb 19, 18 12:13

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 14:27

Post #9 of 21 (4318 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

p3 wrote:

Care to recommend a book?

TARWPM, 3rd edition?

Since it's not exactly intuitive, Training and Racing with a Power Meter.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 17:51

Post #10 of 21 (4194 views)

Rappstar wrote:

- are you tracking all 3 sports?
- how, in particular, are you tracking swimming?
- how are you tracking running?

ATL value of about 100 is very normal for composite score across three sports.

The TSB value will "catch up" if you've only just started doing it.

Dr. Coggan dislikes composite values because he doesn't really think that it's just S+B+R, which I agree with. I found a reasonable sweet spot for composite ATL/CTL values, but that was post hoc based on a massive data set. I think it'd be harder to manage going forward.

In general, he suggests - and I agree - keeping the focus on ATL/CTL/TSB in individual sports. That should be more reflective. I.e., you might be tired running but feel great biking.

I wish there was a way to turn off the composite value in the weekly summary. In particular, to eliminate swimming. I found that I had really consistent numbers and could really sense a logical give-and-take between bike and run. But swimming could introduce much more noise - and also made things much less useful.

are you tracking all 3 sports? YES
- how, in particular, are you tracking swimming? Swim pace, that I enter on page list of zones
- how are you tracking running? HR, threshold pace that is entered into my zone page

Great input Jordan. Thank you.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 17:53

Post #11 of 21 (4192 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

p3 wrote:

Care to recommend a book?

TARWPM, 3rd edition?

Uhhh, when I enter TARWPM into Amazon search, nothing comes up.

Strike 1 Mr. Coggan!

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [p3] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 18:28

Post #12 of 21 (4153 views)

To make it really easy: https://www.amazon.com/...Hunter/dp/1934030554

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [p3] [ In reply to ]

Feb 19, 18 22:11

Post #13 of 21 (4086 views)

Okay, I'm first going to admit that these are not metrics that I follow. That being said, it seems pretty silly to me. I've been a TP user for years, I just went and checked my TSB, which is -53 apparently. First off, what are the units here? Secondly, -30 is over trained and I'm almost twice that? No, sorry, nope, that doesn't track.

Without good units nor explanations from TP, I have to think Jordan's response makes the most sense--it's set up as a cycling metric and we're looking at it in terms of multisport. If -30 is some sort of magic number, then I could believe that I'm -17 or -18 for each sport right now, or maybe -20 for cycling and a little less for swimming (assuming that the relationship between this made up metric and actual fatigue is supposed to be linear, then if I increased my cycling volume/intensity by 50% then yeah, I'd definitely be over trained).

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [CCF] [ In reply to ]

Feb 20, 18 3:31

Post #14 of 21 (4022 views)

First, who said that -30 was over trained?

Second, why did you trust them?

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Feb 20, 18 3:31

Post #15 of 21 (4021 views)

That's not the 3rd edition.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [p3] [ In reply to ]

Feb 20, 18 3:34

Post #16 of 21 (4018 views)

p3 wrote:

Andrew Coggan wrote:

p3 wrote:

Care to recommend a book?

TARWPM, 3rd edition?

Uhhh, when I enter TARWPM into Amazon search, nothing comes up.

Strike 1 Mr. Coggan!

Maybe try TSTWKT instead.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Feb 20, 18 3:46

Post #17 of 21 (4008 views)

Where is the 3rd edition available from? I don't see it on any of the usual sites. I can only see the 2nd edition. Thank you.

P.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [pgibbo] [ In reply to ]

Feb 20, 18 3:49

Post #18 of 21 (4003 views)

Sorry, I was just joking. There is no 3rd edition.

There really should be, though - or even a completely new book (ATARWPM, anyone?) - to describe all the new ideas found in WKO4.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Feb 20, 18 8:32

Post #19 of 21 (3844 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Sorry, I was just joking. There is no 3rd edition.

There really should be, though - or even a completely new book (ATARWPM, anyone?) - to describe all the new ideas found in WKO4.

:) Cheers

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Feb 20, 18 9:08

Post #20 of 21 (3807 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

First, who said that -30 was over trained?

Second, why did you trust them?

In one of the TP articles, is states - paraphrasing- that -30 is very fatigued, while +30 means you are super fresh and ready to race. It does qualify that some people race better at, for example, +10, but the -30/+30 is the parameters to watch.

Again, I don't think TP does a great job explaining all the numbers. Andrew, I already have your book. I will read it through starting tonight, but ... since you suggested it, I am hoping you make TSS/TSB/ATL/CTL?WTF super easy to understand. I liked it the first time, so it should be good.

Re: Explain ATL and Form TSB to me, because Trainingpeaks doesn't answer calls [p3] [ In reply to ]

Feb 20, 18 9:54

Post #21 of 21 (3766 views)

TP also thinks that it's okay to add sTSS, TSS, and rTSS together, so perhaps it's not surprising that they came up with -30 and +30 as limits for TSB.

This link:

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...e-Man/pmc_summit.pdf

has been broken forever, but if it were working it would take you to the presentation in which I first shared all of the details of the PMC approach. In particular, in the last few slides I demonstrated 1) how individuals were more likely to set a new personal best for power when their TSB was greater than +10, but 2) that it varied with the duration of the effort, with "freshness" being more important at durations of 2 min or less vs. 5 min or longer.

Finally, if the goal is to avoid overtraining (and/or illness, injury, etc.), then you should be looking at CTL and the rate of increase in CTL, and not TSB. Yes, both respond to increases in ATL, but CTL is more damped/more indicative of negative consequences of doing too much, too soon.

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