What is the evidence that makes people think there is so much doping amongst KQ'ers?

And the crickets chirp.......silence.

All the people that don’t win. [pink]

For the 2000ish athletes that don't qualify or have any intention of going to Kona, keep in mind that in the cost/benefit equation, there is zero benefit to this testing. //

Of course there is, everyone moves up the # of spots of folks that get busted. It might be in your age group, it could be you sex, or it is at least overall, but everyone in the race behind dopers that get caught moves up. And if you are not after a place, even if it ends up being last, then why are you racing in the fist place? It is a competition from 1st to last, dopers that get culled just move everyone behind them up a place...

Times have not gotten faster. If anything, it seems like it has gotten easier to KQ.

I have won my AG and lost a few times each, never occurred to me to suspect my competitors of actual doping.

Maybe some losers are putting testo patches on, but not many and I bet not to that great an effect.

So what are you looking for? The two doping busts announced this past week, Kevin Moats and Bill Beyers, were both multiple KQrs. That doesn't mean most KQrs dope, but outlier performances, by definition, occur in the KQ crowd. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Pros are rarely tested at races in my experience, especially at races in Central and South America. I have been racing professionally since 2014 and have only been tested once ever, and that was at my home, out of competition. I have had multiple podium finishes and have never been tested after a race. While, I am not a top Kona finisher, I still find the lack of testing to be appalling. In fact, I was taken off of USADA's out of competition testing pool this January after some fairly solid race results in the fall of 2017, doesn't really make sense to me. I am all for more testing and would willingly pay to get tested and publish my results to help support clean sport.

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“To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.” – Steve Prefontaine | http://www.kirstyjahntriathlon.com | twitter: @kirstyjahntri

Lucy Charles posted on her Insta a couple days ago that she was tested. So it's happening at least a little. Obviously youd know more about the whole thing than I would, just wanted to mention that.

Does the fear that others could be doping prevents you from competing?

So, in your mind, to recognize that a business concern is interested in their bottomline (more than doping), translates to a concern for the company?

I am vested only in the sense that I've done 12 and would like them to survive long enough for me to go to Kona on my legacy slot, and then maybe another 5 years after that so I can complete my bucket list. Beyond that, I've got no idea what their average revenue and margin per competitor is.

Concur with this.

Economics teaches profit maximization and I don't fault companies that go for it, but I haven't seen any evidence of WTC turning those screws in recent years. Can you give an example of how, say, IM Texas 2018 turned the screws on people over IM Texas 2017?

More races? Didn't you just say they were worried about participation? Where are the new IMs in North America with higher fees? Where is that thick gravy that has other firms entering the industry to drive real economic profit (not accounting profit) to zero? That gravy appears to be getting pretty thin right now.

I don't know how much they actually test.

Not only do I not know how much they test, I don't know how much they spend on testing, but as I noted above, WTC is a business. You think it's 'cute' that I point out what should be obvious. I think it's cute that you and you others are so willing to tell a business how they should operate when you are not even a stakeholder. You are like government happily spending OPM without having to earn it.

Shock, I agree with the first part. As to the lemming comment, that's just your routine slur against people who have a different value proposition than you do. You don't like WTC and that's fine. But you can't let it go and apparently it makes you feel better to insult their consumers. Just stick with Challenge or whatever races you prefer; it's no skin off my back.

If the additional costs are just 'peanuts' then I'm 100% with you on this, although I'm not sure you would really rejoin us lemmings.

Lol. Thank you. I find it so funny that people demonize companies who provide a service that they desire for trying to make money. Do people not realize that WTC does not exist for any reason other to make money? They don't put on these races out of the goodness of their hearts.

Yeah, I am totally open about that. So what? I like their product. Please note that I am not stopping after the Legacy slot. Since I race globally, I could CHOOSE Challenge but do not. And this invalidates my opinion on PED testing how? Does Challenge do a better job testing? Do for-profit endurance event companies in running or cycling do more testing? How much testing is Lifetime doing in its race series? Your selective outrage only reveals your particular bias against one company.

I'm a card-carrying WTC-hater, but I don't believe that's true. The origins of WTC were pure grassroots, putting on races for the sheer fun of it. Then it gradually morphed into the corporate behemoth it is now, particularly once the private equity types got their money-sucking snouts into the money flow. But for every shareholder-value-maximizing type there are probably 50 other people who just make a salary doing the yeoman's work of putting on racing, setting up logistics, applying for permits, getting insurance, etc. And you don't do that unless you, at some level, enjoy the actual racing a bit. And they're "WTC" too, not just the people in the "C-suite"

Well, don't let the door hit ya..

A. The evidence of doping in amateur triathlon seems lacking due to the fact that they are not testing, although surveys have been cited in this thread... That said, the use of testosterone seems like it is increasing in society (https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/...hormone-on-the-rise/). I cannot listen to my regular sports radio on my commute to and from work without hearing an advertisement for NuMale Medical. The use of testosterone seems to have become normalized. This leads me to believe that it has made its way into our sport.

B. The proportion of KQers doping vs the larger participant pool is irrelevant to my personal rational for why I would like to see KQers. While I am against the use of PEDs, the cost to other participants is minimal when a 15hr Ironman finisher uses PEDs. What did that person take away from the person that finished behind them? One spot in the placing? For the people aspiring to KQ a lot is on the line. When a KQer uses PEDs they have taken that KQ from someone else, which in many cases is taking someone's dream. There is a lot more at stake when it comes to the KQ.

With my first two points aside, what sort of evidence would you suggest is gathered? My suggestion would be to test. It seems like you are saying because we do not test there is no evidence, and because there is no evidence we should not test...

I agree that there is minimal or even zero benefit to other $2k athletes. The post of mine you quoted was simply a response to the notion that $5 to $10 per registrant would not fund PED testing. My point was simply that it COULD fund testing KQers.

Yes Ironman does not get the testing for free. My original suggestion was to refund a portion of the KQ testing fee paid by KQers, not all of it. I also included the caveat "Ironman would assume some risk in the process above because to accurately price the tests, they would need a decent prediction of the failure rate." I understand that is a challenge.

I do not know what the best solution is, but I do support testing KQers. A lot goes into qualifying. I see value in ensuring the KQ process is fair.

Jed,
I actually agree with everything you said in this post I am replying to. I would welcome additional testing. I would love to get tested.

My comment was pointed more towards the people that should be posting their comments on the "Cry like a little bitch" thread.


I think that people use all sorts of excuses to not put the effort into chasing that dream, any dream. All the KQ'ers dope. Every IM race is a draftfest. I didn't win the genetic lottery. All the rich people stole their $$ from the rest of us. They had rich parents. And on and on it goes. How about this, work your ass off. Beat the cheaters. Train on your bike hard enough that if the draftfest happens.....it'll be behind you anyways. Outrun the dopers.

I agree that its not fair to be beaten by a doper, and we should do something to enforce the rules. In the end, life isn't fair, and that fact should not be someone's excuse.

Flame away